Flame Angelfish Breeding attempt

[fla2341]

After a 3 day break in spawning I got over 100 eggs last night and 80-90 pro-larva hatched today. I put 20 eggs into a 1 gallon glass jar with 2 ltrs of tank water which had been boiled for 6 minutes in the microwave then allowed to cool overnight. Then added enough nanno to heavy tint the water green. I also put this jar in the direct sun for 5 hours today. The pro-larva in the jar are just as active as the ones in the breeding tank holder.

I want to see if the direct sun for several hours a day changes the results.

More results to follow as they occure.

 

[Clownfishfan]

Interesting....
I never thought about trying different amounts of time exposure to the sun.

 

[fla2341]

Update: The larva in the jar are still alive and kicking. I was able to spot three floating around in there. I have no idea how many might be floating in there beyond that if any. It's difficult enough to see them in a small container but now it would be near impossible to spot them if I didn't know what to look for. I'm only going to look more intensely after the 6 DPH mark from before. All of the pro-larva in the in tank holder are dead from this same spawn after 48 hrs PH. I contine to place this jar in direct sun for 4-5 hours each day.

I had a spawn 2 nights ago of aprox 50 eggs and only 1 developed into a pro-larva. The pair seemed agitated and hurried so the male might not have gotten lined up right or something.

Last night they spawned again with approx 57 eggs and there were 44 pro-larva which developed. I however did not hatch them in the parent tank but in an external container with nanno added. The temps here are now in the mid-high 80's and in the house it's a steady 80-82 with AC.

 

[Clownfishfan]

Are you going to try leaving a jar of eggs outside for full time?

 

[Jasanden]

Subscribed. I find your efforts very exciting. Hopefully my potters angel pair will start spawning at some point. How do you retrieve the eggs from your display?

 

[fla2341]

Clownfishfan: Right now the jar is in a window which gets direct sunlight. I would like to keep them outside to get full on unfiltered(right now it's being filtered by the window glass and screen)sunlight at some point, however I have too many animals in my area which have, in the past, tipped over my algae jars outside. At some point I would like to build a raceway with sections and a large sump/refugium attached to try that method out. That I will build outside. However funds are extreemly low to non existent right now so that will have to wait for better times.


Jasanden: I use a small glass container/jar to dip them out of the tank. I pour this into one of my floating hatchers. Using this method it takes me about 10 minutes to collect the eggs. Make sure to catch all sides and corners not just the open water. Also make sure that the main filtration of the tank is off just before the spawning and until after you have collected the eggs or several will end up in the sump.

I want to keep Potter's as well. Any difficulty in keeping them? Can you show a photo of them?

A note on collecting the eggs: I built a seive with 120 micron mesh and used this method to collect three consecutive batches before. Using this method resulted in a much lower rate of eggs hatching - about 6/10 ave. for every spawn. I stopped using this method early on. I know the eggs were fertilized by viewing them with the microscope, however they did not proceed past the developmental stage just prior to hatch. I assume that the shell might have hardened after too much air exposure. Based on my experience (as limited as that is right now) I would not recommend using a net or seive if you want most of the eggs to hatch out. Dip them out to not over expose them to the air. Thanks Jasanden for jaring my memory on this.

If any one has any ideas or experience in breeding angelfish please feel free to chime in.

One photo below shows a fertizlied and unfertilized egg 12 hours post spawn. The other is a clear shot of a fertilized egg close to hatching.

 

[fla2341]

Short video of 3 DPH

Short video of 3 DPH

Short video of the 3DPH larval fish. This was taken thru the glass jar using the USB Microscope setting: 30x's. A little crappy but you can see the up/down motions, breathing and main features. I watched this one and two others for over an hour today. They moved twards the flashlight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3tJsppkgGw&feature=youtu.be

 

[fla2341]

100+ eggs last night

100+ eggs last night

I collected 100+ eggs last night. Most are in the egg cluster in the photo at the bottom. Early developmental signs point to high fertilization. Spawning occured @ 11:20pm

 

[humaguy]

excellent job! this is amazing...good luck...I am watching this thread!!

 

[moshi1ry]

this is pretty awesome hopefully you get past this larva stage and get some good looking angel fish! Im curious tho since ive only studied clown fish mating behavior what are the flame angels like? For instance with clown fish the female is more dominant and larger is the same true for these? Also do the angel fish eat the larva if you left them in the tank? Might be safer to let them hatch in the tank then siphon the larva out long as the fish dont eat them! O and sorry one more thing whats the time estimate from hatch to full grown baby? Thanks!

 

[fla2341]

humaguy: Thanks Stay tuned

moshi1ry: Thanks for your interest. The flame angels are pelagic spawners. They release their eggs into the water column. They eggs float initially. If you don't remove them ASAP they tend to end up as food, in the skimmer or as added nitrates. The male is the more dominate and larger of the pair. The male chases the female thru the rockwork for about 2-3 hours prior to spawning. They stop to check things out several times by poking their noses out of the rocks. At approx 1/2 hour prior to lights out the female will flare her fins infront of the male and the male will nudge the female's abdomen forming a "T". The pair will begin to "rise" together - in the case of my pair they rise 5" or so - and then spawn. Then in a flash they dart back into the rocks. Time from spawn to settlement can vary, but from what I've read, can be anywhere from 30 days to 6 months. The larva right now are only 2mm and are very difficult to see up to 3-4 DPH.

Summary of egg to larval development: There seem to be several stages (hurtles) the eggs to larval fish go thru even before the transition to meta and settlement.
1st is the hatching of the eggs. I've seen with my collection that too much exposure to air and the shell seems to get hard and the eggs will develop but not hatch as well as being dipped out.
2nd is the development of the larval fish from the pro-larval fish. I've seen several failed pro-larval fish where the proto eyes(bumps only - no eyes) have developed but not gained difinition, Eyes have developed along with the digestive/stomach and pectorial fins, and finally with eyes developed and pigmented as well as the mouth developed.
I'm now into the 3rdwith full larval fish but I've got to get the numbers up which develop to this stage. Next will be to establish the first food viability and refinement of when/how much to add.

 

[Jasanden]

Here is a pic of my 2 potters angels. I have had them for about a year. Sorry about the lousy picture but the male is on the left and the transitioning female on the right. I say transitioning because both angels have about the same coverage of blue but the female you can see orange underneath where the males blue is so deep its almost black. For the amount of time i Have had the 2 in my 120 gal reef i would think the transition would be complete but the color makes me wonder.

And here is a solo shot of the male

 

[Radioheadx14]

Wow those are dark potters, the two i had were much more orange.

 

[Sport507]

humaguy: Thanks Stay tuned

moshi1ry: Thanks for your interest. The flame angels are pelagic spawners. They release their eggs into the water column. They eggs float initially. If you don't remove them ASAP they tend to end up as food, in the skimmer or as added nitrates. The male is the more dominate and larger of the pair. The male chases the female thru the rockwork for about 2-3 hours prior to spawning. They stop to check things out several times by poking their noses out of the rocks. At approx 1/2 hour prior to lights out the female will flare her fins infront of the male and the male will nudge the female's abdomen forming a "T". The pair will begin to "rise" together - in the case of my pair they rise 5" or so - and then spawn. Then in a flash they dart back into the rocks. Time from spawn to settlement can vary, but from what I've read, can be anywhere from 30 days to 6 months. The larva right now are only 2mm and are very difficult to see up to 3-4 DPH.

Summary of egg to larval development: There seem to be several stages (hurtles) the eggs to larval fish go thru even before the transition to meta and settlement.
1st is the hatching of the eggs. I've seen with my collection that too much exposure to air and the shell seems to get hard and the eggs will develop but not hatch as well as being dipped out.
2nd is the development of the larval fish from the pro-larval fish. I've seen several failed pro-larval fish where the proto eyes(bumps only - no eyes) have developed but not gained difinition, Eyes have developed along with the digestive/stomach and pectorial fins, and finally with eyes developed and pigmented as well as the mouth developed.
I'm now into the 3rdwith full larval fish but I've got to get the numbers up which develop to this stage. Next will be to establish the first food viability and refinement of when/how much to add.

Great posts, let me guess I'll bet you live somewhere in the Harbour Heights area?

 

[CaptCrash]

Congratulations on the progress you are making. Im going through an almost identical experience with Paracanthurus hepatus (Blue/Regal Tang).

I wish you all the best, Ill be following your progress with real interest, I would love to work with Flame Angel's in the future and your progress so far is really encouraging.

 

[fla2341]

Jasanden: That's a nice looking pair of Potters. You've had them for about a year now with no signs of spawning behaviour? Does the male chase the female close to lights out? Do they fight any? If I'm not mistaken Potters are found in deeper water then the Flames and might need a darkened area to help with the spawning response initially. Since yours have been in there for this long they might have become accustomed to the brighter environment. What sizes are they - approx. and how big were they when you got them and did they come as a pair or did you form them yourself? Questions, questions, questions....

Sport507: Nope. I live in FLA Just off I4. There are several Harbor Heights here but I live in none of them. Cape Canaveral, Punta Gorda/Charlotte Harbor and Ft. Lauderdale to name a few.

CaptCrash: Excellent. I want to try Yellow, Achillies and Powder Blue Tangs when I'm able to. Have you started a thread yet so I can tract your progress? Thank you for kind words. I'm attempting this with as little specialized equipment as possible. If I can bring just 1 thru meta and settlement then I will have exceeded my wildest dreams. What are your tank specs? etc..... I want to know about all breeding attempts/sucesses for these more difficult/impossible labled species. The only way we will learn is thru trial and error and while I can't breed everyone I want maybe someone else is or has tried and I want to know the who, what , where, why and whens.......

 

[fla2341]

Time from Spawn to hatching

Time from Spawn to hatching

The attached photo shows eggs I collected last night hatching. These eggs were spawned at 11:40pm last night and the photo was just taken at 1:00pm today. The water temp is 80-81 degrees F.

 

[CaptCrash]

I know what you mean with the other tangs, It would be great to be able to raise them.
My progress so far is recorded on the Marine Breeding Initiative site with all of the detail for my attempt so far http://www.mbisite.org/Forums/tm.aspx?m=63962
I even got some press (google search for "reefbuilder darren nancarrow") which was really cool.

My main tank is a 6x2x2 180G so nothing huge, I have two females and one male. They spawn every 2-3 days, often with both females within 30 seconds to an hour of each other.

Now i'm at a similar point to you, the hard part. Like you Im doing this at home, with just hobbyist level stuff, mostly I use 2L plastic containers and a desk lamp for heat/light. I collect eggs by scooping them from the tank before the other fish get them.
The best result is 18 days post spawn with 14 days quite reliably (with wild sourced zooplankton).
A friend just lent me a microscope so I can hopefully identify and then culture the food that is getting them going.

I know what you mean with the just one settled, it makes all the effort, expense and frustration so worth while.

Sorry for the thread hijack, but its almost like you and I have the exact same process and experience, just with a different species. The pictures are even similar.

 

[Landsailor]

Best of luck to you! Flames have always been one of my favorite fish.

Here's hoping to see a tank full of babies in your future.

I raised bettas once. Man, seeing a school of thirty bright blue, nickel sized dots swimming and turning all at once is pure joy. I bet flames would be incredible.

 

[fla2341]

CaptCrash: Awsome work. Any updates on your progress? Don't worry about a thread hijack I want to know about other attempts - like you said they look so similar. Being similar, missing 1st, 2nd and final foods might also be similar. A break through for you might lead to one for me or others & vice versa.

Landsailor: I know what you mean. I've raised all manner of fresh water fish ( including bettas, barbs, tetras, cichlids, rams, angelfish and discus) but few salt. Thanks for your support. I'll be happy with just 1 for starters. After that I'll get greedy and want a tank full.