Flame Angelfish Breeding attempt
- Thread starter fla2341
- Start date
fla2341
New member
billsreef,Luis A M: This is so true.
I'm stuck at 7 DPH. I've seen them show eating behaviour. I'm currently looking at 50 or so 5DPH larval fish from 100 eggs. They will float at the 45 degree head down angle then swim horzontal slowly. Some will then stop and lurch forward then continue on swimming/floating in the water column. They also change direction/take a sharp turn to lurch forward - so I would assume from that, that they are finding something to eat in the soup. The jar is full of nanno, spirulina powder and kelp meal as well as rotifers and the aforementioned copepods - but not so much you can't see thru the jar. I think it's a nauplii of the Nitokra lacustris copepod they are hunting because of the brown spot i've seen in the stomach of several now. The brown spot appears in different locations and not in every larva i've sampled. This is the 1st attempt at offering a lot of different foods including particulate plant matter finely ground and re hydrated.
I was thinking you must have pristine water conditions to bring them thru to the 9 DPH starvation point because they still are extreemly fragile and prone to infections when weakened. I've seen some as young as 3 DPH who have attempted to eat. I think that at 4 DPH you must be ready to supply them with the foods they will need. At this point you start to see the silvery development in the stomach area which I think may be the stomach membrane.
I'm stuck at 7 DPH. I've seen them show eating behaviour. I'm currently looking at 50 or so 5DPH larval fish from 100 eggs. They will float at the 45 degree head down angle then swim horzontal slowly. Some will then stop and lurch forward then continue on swimming/floating in the water column. They also change direction/take a sharp turn to lurch forward - so I would assume from that, that they are finding something to eat in the soup. The jar is full of nanno, spirulina powder and kelp meal as well as rotifers and the aforementioned copepods - but not so much you can't see thru the jar. I think it's a nauplii of the Nitokra lacustris copepod they are hunting because of the brown spot i've seen in the stomach of several now. The brown spot appears in different locations and not in every larva i've sampled. This is the 1st attempt at offering a lot of different foods including particulate plant matter finely ground and re hydrated.
I was thinking you must have pristine water conditions to bring them thru to the 9 DPH starvation point because they still are extreemly fragile and prone to infections when weakened. I've seen some as young as 3 DPH who have attempted to eat. I think that at 4 DPH you must be ready to supply them with the foods they will need. At this point you start to see the silvery development in the stomach area which I think may be the stomach membrane.
fla2341
New member
algae storage bottle/trial and errors
algae storage bottle/trial and errors
Algae storage bottle: For those interested this is the bottle type I use to store my nanno in the fridge and freezer. It's very convenient as it's glass, can be resealed and cleaned. Not to mention you get to empty it first.:spin2:
Trial and errors:
I recently ( 2 mos ago) read in a koi forum about the use of yogurt to treat sick koi. I experimented with yogurt with live cultures on the food for my flame angel pair. These are the results:
I took a cuetip/cotton swab and swiped up some yogurt ( approx 2 drops). I next applied it to the frozen food by swiping it on the food and letting it set for 1-2 hrs in the fridge. Later I fed my pair three times that day as usual but with the yogurt laced food. I got a surprising result. Up to the point I applied the yogurt I was getting 100 or so eggs each spawn but the spawns were not every night. The spawn from the night I fed yogurt to the pair I got 300-400 eggs, however they did not develop past the pro lravae stage. For the next 1-2 nights I got larger spawns 200-300 but only a few would develop to the larvae stage. The third night after yogurt I got only 50 eggs but all were fertile and 50-60% developed to the larval stage. After that they spawned every night and I got 200+ eggs with 50-60% developing thru to the larval fish stage. I waited 10 days and did it again with nearly the same results. Now they spawn every night and I get 200-300 eggs each time with very few not fertile ( 10-20).
Question:
Did the yogurt have an effect and if so what was the cause of the effect? Please chime in.
algae storage bottle/trial and errors
Algae storage bottle: For those interested this is the bottle type I use to store my nanno in the fridge and freezer. It's very convenient as it's glass, can be resealed and cleaned. Not to mention you get to empty it first.:spin2:
Trial and errors:
I recently ( 2 mos ago) read in a koi forum about the use of yogurt to treat sick koi. I experimented with yogurt with live cultures on the food for my flame angel pair. These are the results:
I took a cuetip/cotton swab and swiped up some yogurt ( approx 2 drops). I next applied it to the frozen food by swiping it on the food and letting it set for 1-2 hrs in the fridge. Later I fed my pair three times that day as usual but with the yogurt laced food. I got a surprising result. Up to the point I applied the yogurt I was getting 100 or so eggs each spawn but the spawns were not every night. The spawn from the night I fed yogurt to the pair I got 300-400 eggs, however they did not develop past the pro lravae stage. For the next 1-2 nights I got larger spawns 200-300 but only a few would develop to the larvae stage. The third night after yogurt I got only 50 eggs but all were fertile and 50-60% developed to the larval stage. After that they spawned every night and I got 200+ eggs with 50-60% developing thru to the larval fish stage. I waited 10 days and did it again with nearly the same results. Now they spawn every night and I get 200-300 eggs each time with very few not fertile ( 10-20).
Question:
Did the yogurt have an effect and if so what was the cause of the effect? Please chime in.
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fla2341
New member
billsreef: Thanks for the quick reply.
The question then would be "If that were so then how could I have repeated it 10 days later and got simular results?"
I fed them 3x's - once at 9am ish, 1pm ish and 8pm ish with the yogurt laced food. How long does it take for the female to produce the eggs for an evenings spawn?
I wish I had more pairs I could try this out on but further experimentation like that will have to wait. I also wonder what if any effect the yogurt had on their overall health if any?
Current experiment with eggs:
I've started a new trial with the eggs, pro lravae and larval fish. I put 1/2 gallon old tank water - not boiled in the 1 gallon jar. I then added enough nanno to tint the water so you can't see thru it. I also added the copepods and hopefully none of the rotifers. I did this 2 days prior to adding any eggs. There are a lot of copepods and nauplii swimming and occupying the glass 2 nights ago. I added the eggs from the past two nights spawnings approx 300-400. I looked at the eggs to determine overall fertility (90+%) and removed dead eggs prior to addition. The air is set to deliver approx 80 bubbles per minute.
During the last experiments the result was the same: the rotifers supplied no food I could detect to the larval fish and eventually over grew the jars causing the water quality to deteriorate. All larval fish were dead after 6/7days for both jars/trials. On a good note: I now have 2 fresh rotifer cultures.:hmm3:
The question then would be "If that were so then how could I have repeated it 10 days later and got simular results?"
I fed them 3x's - once at 9am ish, 1pm ish and 8pm ish with the yogurt laced food. How long does it take for the female to produce the eggs for an evenings spawn?
I wish I had more pairs I could try this out on but further experimentation like that will have to wait. I also wonder what if any effect the yogurt had on their overall health if any?
Current experiment with eggs:
I've started a new trial with the eggs, pro lravae and larval fish. I put 1/2 gallon old tank water - not boiled in the 1 gallon jar. I then added enough nanno to tint the water so you can't see thru it. I also added the copepods and hopefully none of the rotifers. I did this 2 days prior to adding any eggs. There are a lot of copepods and nauplii swimming and occupying the glass 2 nights ago. I added the eggs from the past two nights spawnings approx 300-400. I looked at the eggs to determine overall fertility (90+%) and removed dead eggs prior to addition. The air is set to deliver approx 80 bubbles per minute.
During the last experiments the result was the same: the rotifers supplied no food I could detect to the larval fish and eventually over grew the jars causing the water quality to deteriorate. All larval fish were dead after 6/7days for both jars/trials. On a good note: I now have 2 fresh rotifer cultures.:hmm3:
fla2341
New member
Mrcat, HPark, El richie, Zoanut, Chuza8799 any any one I've missed: Thank you for taking the time to look this over.
I want this to be as comprehensive as I can. I wanted to included the trial with rotifers to be able to exclude them for myself. I've read several papers, articles and posts where the few mentions read, if I remember correctly, that centropyge would rather starve then eat them(no photo) but I also read that some evidence was found in their gut that they did try to eat them(included a photo showing rotifer remains in gut).
The 5/6 day jar: Is done- no survivors due to a protists bloom. There were only 10-15 which made it to the larval fish stage. The protists bloom out competed the copepods for food. No amount of water changes could bring the water quality up for long. Several hours, 5-6, after a water change the ammonia was way up arround 1.0+ These are the form of protists which took over the 1st trial from 5/26/12. They cleared the water of algae in 3 days
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10yrGdWBDhA&feature=youtu.be
The 3/4 day jar doesn't have the same problem. The protists are there but seem to be under better control. There was no difference in the parameters of the 2nd jar. EXCEPT: the nanno which I used came from a bottle I had in the fridge for 2 days.
I want this to be as comprehensive as I can. I wanted to included the trial with rotifers to be able to exclude them for myself. I've read several papers, articles and posts where the few mentions read, if I remember correctly, that centropyge would rather starve then eat them(no photo) but I also read that some evidence was found in their gut that they did try to eat them(included a photo showing rotifer remains in gut).
The 5/6 day jar: Is done- no survivors due to a protists bloom. There were only 10-15 which made it to the larval fish stage. The protists bloom out competed the copepods for food. No amount of water changes could bring the water quality up for long. Several hours, 5-6, after a water change the ammonia was way up arround 1.0+ These are the form of protists which took over the 1st trial from 5/26/12. They cleared the water of algae in 3 days
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10yrGdWBDhA&feature=youtu.be
The 3/4 day jar doesn't have the same problem. The protists are there but seem to be under better control. There was no difference in the parameters of the 2nd jar. EXCEPT: the nanno which I used came from a bottle I had in the fridge for 2 days.
fla2341
New member
billsreef: I'm about a 1/2 hr - 45 mins. away. I've been considering it. I also know for a fact where I can collect mysis, tisbe, amphapods, gracilaria and caulerpa plus a bunch of other critters and plants. I wanted to avoid this as most who struggle with these fishes don't have the ready accessability to sub tropical/tropical waters and I wanted to see what could be done with what's available to everyone.
Nighthawk31
New member
Great project. I'll be following along for sure. Thanks for sharing your efforts with us.
fla2341
New member
For those photo junkies here's the eggs collected from tonight. I counted 800+ as there were still some along the edges I didn't photograph. This is the largest spawn to date. The past three nights have yeilded 600-700+ eggs each night. I'm getting 100 or so eggs not fertilized/defunked each spawn, all others hatched into pro larvae.
Not had a chance to go fishing yet.
Not had a chance to go fishing yet.
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fla2341
New member
Food in stomach?
Food in stomach?
I need some opinions:
These photos show a 5DPH larval fish in 2 exposures. I see a brownish/white lump inside the middle of the stomach. The only live food I've added to the jar was Tisbe and Nitokra lacustris napulii.
Thoughts?
Food in stomach?
I need some opinions:
These photos show a 5DPH larval fish in 2 exposures. I see a brownish/white lump inside the middle of the stomach. The only live food I've added to the jar was Tisbe and Nitokra lacustris napulii.
Thoughts?
Attachments
jungle pete
New member
Hey Fla2341,
I'm over in Melbourne FL working on a similar project. I got to a similar point (5 day old) last summer before getting distracted by other things in life. When I start getting eggs again (right now temps are lowered and no eggs) I will start plankton towing. I have a small raft and a 6' 50 micron net. Its not pretty but it might work on calm days. On rough days when I can't get past the breakers I plan to go down to sebastian inlet (45 minutes south). I was collecting there last year and had some success... there were copepod nauplii in the mix and something was filling their larval bellies. Anyway, just letting you know I'm out here if you want to collaborate. Also to your west you have Wittenrich making some progress with angels.
http://http://risingtideconservation.blogspot.com/2011_12_01_archive.html.
Congrats on a good start fla324.
Peter
I'm over in Melbourne FL working on a similar project. I got to a similar point (5 day old) last summer before getting distracted by other things in life. When I start getting eggs again (right now temps are lowered and no eggs) I will start plankton towing. I have a small raft and a 6' 50 micron net. Its not pretty but it might work on calm days. On rough days when I can't get past the breakers I plan to go down to sebastian inlet (45 minutes south). I was collecting there last year and had some success... there were copepod nauplii in the mix and something was filling their larval bellies. Anyway, just letting you know I'm out here if you want to collaborate. Also to your west you have Wittenrich making some progress with angels.
http://http://risingtideconservation.blogspot.com/2011_12_01_archive.html.
Congrats on a good start fla324.
Peter
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