BeanAnimal
Premium Member
I would turn vegan, but don't plants have feelings too!
flushing fish
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BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Warm blooded and cold blooded creatures react to temperature swing differently ralphie. Cold blooded creatures slow down as the temperature drops. As they slow down, so does their nervous system 
I wonder what they think when a bigger fish chomps on them, or a bear plucks them out of the waterfall?
I wonder what they think when a bigger fish chomps on them, or a bear plucks them out of the waterfall?
why is that hypocritical? would you weep if someone form your friend or family died? of course right? what if they suffered before they died? absolutely.
how about all the millions of people who die all around the world from cruel governments? so your saying that you would be hypocritical and can only care if someone from your family dies if you also care about all the people around the world who die too that you dont even know?
let me break it down how you said it:
The fact that you weep over one "family member/friend" yet don't raise a finger for the millions "of people" that are killed annually in the "human" trade is just hypocritical.
I would not call someone hypocritical if they felt bad for someone they knew and not for someone all the way across the world....
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fishyvet
New member
I really don't care if you think fish can feel pain or not. Fish do respond to noxious stimuli and that is good enough evidence for me to try to make death as "painless" as possible. Many people do consider their fish pets and want the same considerations for them as are made for cats and dogs. Currently it is illegal (and socially unacceptable) to put your cat or dog in the freezer until its dead. So freeze away on the fish for now, just know that there are many scientists interested in humane methods of euthanizing fish and the freezer, and microwave for that matter, don't cut it. For those of you who are interested in humanely euthanizing a fish, please refer to the following document. Page 20 (JAVMA, Vol 218, No. 5, March 1, 2001 p. 687) has the fish section.
http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf
http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf
RichConley
New member
Bean, how is that relevant? My pet rabbit would feel lots of pain if my neighbor's dog tried to eat him, but that doesnt mean I shouldnt try to ease his suffering if I put him down.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
fishyvet, please make the arguement that the garbage disposal, blender, or a hammer are not humane 
Just because we find the idea of instant violent death uncomfortable from a human perspective, does not mean that it is inhumane. Instant lights out is instant lights out. Yet, we will spend millions on laws and methods to make the act more comfortable for the bleeding heart humans that have to carry it out.
Don't get me wrong, I would not smash my dog over the head with a hammer or freeze him to death. I also despise the fact that people torture pets. I can also understand people having feelings for their pets, as my dog is like a member of the family.
Just don't spend my tax money trying to make yourself feel better when you kill lab rats. It is utter nonsense. Your worried about the freezer or microwave, but I would bet that you don't think twice when you sit down to eat that haddock fillet or prime rib. When was the last time you told the manager of the meat counter that the current harvesting methods "just don't cut it?"
Sure scientists are working on things like that... the world is full of scientists that waste money working on things like that. Hell an entire industry is built around spending on feel good science.
More food for thought.
Just because we find the idea of instant violent death uncomfortable from a human perspective, does not mean that it is inhumane. Instant lights out is instant lights out. Yet, we will spend millions on laws and methods to make the act more comfortable for the bleeding heart humans that have to carry it out.
Don't get me wrong, I would not smash my dog over the head with a hammer or freeze him to death. I also despise the fact that people torture pets. I can also understand people having feelings for their pets, as my dog is like a member of the family.
Just don't spend my tax money trying to make yourself feel better when you kill lab rats. It is utter nonsense. Your worried about the freezer or microwave, but I would bet that you don't think twice when you sit down to eat that haddock fillet or prime rib. When was the last time you told the manager of the meat counter that the current harvesting methods "just don't cut it?"
Sure scientists are working on things like that... the world is full of scientists that waste money working on things like that. Hell an entire industry is built around spending on feel good science.
More food for thought.
fishyvet
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10303440#post10303440 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
fishyvet, please make the arguement that the garbage disposal, blender, or a hammer are not humane
Just because we find the idea of instant violent death uncomfortable from a human perspective, does not mean that it is inhumane. Instant lights out is instant lights out. Yet, we will spend millions on laws and methods to make the act more comfortable for the bleeding heart humans that have to carry it out.
Don't get me wrong, I would not smash my dog over the head with a hammer or freeze him to death. I also despise the fact that people torture pets. I can also understand people having feelings for their pets, as my dog is like a member of the family.
Just don't spend my tax money trying to make yourself feel better when you kill lab rats. It is utter nonsense. Your worried about the freezer or microwave, but I would bet that you don't think twice when you sit down to eat that haddock fillet or prime rib. When was the last time you told the manager of the meat counter that the current harvesting methods "just don't cut it?"
Sure scientists are working on things like that... the world is full of scientists that waste money working on things like that. Hell an entire industry is built around spending on feel good science.
More food for thought.
none of your methods would be inhumane if it severed the spinal cord appropriately on the first go round. But since I could not guarantee that the fish would be instantly dead the first time I attempted it, I say it has the potential to be inhumane and I would never use it in front of a client. There are just better ways.
Just by the way, you have no say where your tax dollars are spent. I admit ignorance about where the money comes from to fund these studies but I do feel that there is a place for them to ensure animals have a painless death. Maybe you don't see the need for animal research but there are a lot of people who disagree with you.
I don't feel bad about ribs, steak, or chicken. I've been to production facilities and seen the slaughter houses. It's gruesome but the animals were not suffering or in pain in the end. But I do feel bad for the fish because they suffocate and their swimbladders burst when being hauled from the deep. I am a bleedingheart animal lover and I hate to see any creature suffer. I see no point in trying to make a butcher feel badly for providing fillets because the animals suffocated to death. He is on the retail end of things and has no influence over the process. I can't think of a more effective way to kill thousands of fish for market than suffocation, but yeah, it makes me feel bad about the animal's end when I eat it.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Sadly, we do not have direct say in where our tax dollars are spent.
I would not smash a fish in front of a client either As I said, I can understand the feelingst that people have for their pets, not matter what that pet is.
I also fully understand the need for animal research and also feel that the animals should be treated as well as possible.
I also do not like to see animals suffer, for any reason. I likely could not eat the pet cow. That said, I do eat steak and somebody elses cow
Like I said, just food for thought. Many people are not able to put things in perspective and instead think totaly with their hearts and let logic and the rest of reality be damed.
Bean
I would not smash a fish in front of a client either
As I said, I can understand the feelingst that people have for their pets, not matter what that pet is.I also fully understand the need for animal research and also feel that the animals should be treated as well as possible.
I also do not like to see animals suffer, for any reason. I likely could not eat the pet cow. That said, I do eat steak and somebody elses cow
Like I said, just food for thought. Many people are not able to put things in perspective and instead think totaly with their hearts and let logic and the rest of reality be damed.
Bean
Paul B
Premium Member
I believe that people who feel that fish have feelings should not take them from the sea and keep them hostage until they die in their tanks.
Leave them in the sea so they can be eaten alive naturally like they are supposed to do.
Today I killed a bunch of carpenter bees that were making holes all over my house. I don't feel bad about them at all mainly because I believe they feel as much pain as fish.
Paul
Leave them in the sea so they can be eaten alive naturally like they are supposed to do.
Today I killed a bunch of carpenter bees that were making holes all over my house. I don't feel bad about them at all mainly because I believe they feel as much pain as fish.
Paul
The argument is not about the fish's feelings Paul. Its that many of us humans have feelings for the fish that we keep and think of them as pets and do not want them to suffer more then they have to when they their time comes. If you don't think of them as pets like dogs then thats your thing but don't take that away from people who do think of them in that respect. Same thing can be said about dogs, we keep them hostage in our little homes & backyards, instead of in nature where they would be eaten alive like they are supposed to. So what if someone has a soft spot for fish too?
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
I don't think paul has a problem with people weeping for their dying fish and wanting it not to suffer. Paul (like many if us) has a problem with the people who use that type of emotion to preach to others about how and why the rest of us should treat our dying fish, or bumble bees, or whatever somebody has decided has feelings and is as high on the food chain as a human... It is not a far stretch to "don't kill that roach, it has feelings too" is the point.
Cantonesefish
with active cooling
To the original question... it doesn't matter if fish have feelings or not (assuming they can't feel pain is rather asinine), flushing fish that are ALIVE is inhumane... it's neither instant nor painless. Hopefully we've gotten far enough in this thread to agree on that.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
And pulling them from the stream on your next fishing trip is? It is all a matter of perspective, thats all.
Paul B
Premium Member
Ralphie, it's perfectable acceptable to think of fish as pets. I never said not to. I don't, but of course you can if you like.
Cantonesefish, I must be asinine because I don't think fish feel pain.
I am not saying that because I am heartless or because I don't think of fish as pets. I am saying that because I have been studying them for over fifty years and I have been diving with them for almost forty of those years. I have seen a lot of fish die from many causes and in my observations I don't think they feel pain. You can love your fish like they are your family but they are cold blooded creatures, very low on the evolutionary scale with almost no areas in their brain dedicated to feeling any pain. They obviousely feel something but an animal that is designed to be eaten alive almost 100% of the time really should not feel pain.
I have seen sharks with their intestines ripped out trailing 10 feet behind them and the same animal trying to keep turning around to eat them himself. I have caught many flounder and thrown them back because they were too small only to catch the same animal a few minutes later even though their mouth was practically torn off. I once had a hippo tang that had a shrimp in his mouth, a trigger fish tore off his entire lower jaw. That hippo continued to try to eat even though he had no mouth.
I came to this conclusion from many years of observation not just because I feel bad if a fish dies.
You can't compare dogs to fish, a dog is a mammal like us.
A fish metabolism is controlled by temperature like a snake, frog, insect or worm. Those animals do not feel cold because they are always cold. When you warm them up they move faster, if you chill them they go slower. Goldfish live all winter under the ice, they are not cold, they are in a state of hybernation. It is not pain, it is a natural thing for cold blooded animals to slow down in the cold. Their bodily functions slow down with no harm to the animal. In that state even their brains are not functioning.
In a freezer their heart keeps slowing down until it stops. They do not get cold. It happens to fish in northern climates all the time. I don't know what you do with a fish that is obviousely dying but if you feel for the animal you would do better freezing it than to let it die slowly. I don't think they are in pain but I can tell they are not real "happy" for lack of a better word.
My fish live a very long time I don't torture them, I don't abuse them, I do everything I can to let them live their normal lifespan which is sometimes 18 years. I collect their food in the sea and I Have dove with every type of fish that I have had. I think I know enough about them to have a fairly good Idea about what they need and although I am not the God of fish I have studied them longer than anyone I know so thats my educated opinion about what they feel.
Hows that for two fingered typing?
Stanton
New member
The way I see it... If you truly care about whats humane and whats not..You have to ask yourself is keeping your fish in a glass box humane? No it's not! You can train them to respond positvely so we think they are just tickled to freakin death to be our pets. Wheres the best place for a fish? In it's natural habitat!
If certain people are so worried about whats humane...Then theyshould flie their fish back to where they came from and wish them well. Thats humane! Until you do that ...HUSH. Your no better than the next guy.
If certain people are so worried about whats humane...Then theyshould flie their fish back to where they came from and wish them well. Thats humane! Until you do that ...HUSH. Your no better than the next guy.
royaloaksmoke
New member
Humane...since when are fish human?
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