For all you problem solvers out there

rossthefishman

New member
I work at a pet store, where we move through a lot of feeder fish weekly. Like two thousand goldfish, two thousand guppies, two thousand rosy red minnows. At the time they are split up in 55 gallon tanks with lots of filter, but this system isn't working, and it's causing WAY TOO MUCH ammonia and nitrate. So i need a system to most effeciently keep these fish alive longer. I can't set up a huge tank, but i was thinking about a big rubbermade tub? Need some insight from the experts. thanks
 
Is the majority for your store or for sale to customers? I'd assume for sale but thought I'd ask.

How many goldfish for example would you say you have in a 55 at any given time (average).

Is the system the "feeders" are in completely seperate from store tanks or attached?

Does each of these "feeder" tanks have it's own filtration or are they combined?

What kind of filtration are you currently running on these tanks?

How many 55g tanks are you presently using?

Do you "stage" the fish (fist in first out) or do new arrivals get added to the current tank?

Are you presently using RO or RO/DI water in these tanks?

How often are you currently doing water changes on these tanks?

How many would you say out of a 100 will die on you presently?


What kind of readings are you getting for ammonia, nitrite and nitrates?

I know I can make a few suggestions for the system as well as many others here but the information above will help us get a better idea what you're up against.

Carlo
 
Is the majority for your store or for sale to customers? These fish are in the back, so nothing is for sale back there

How many goldfish for example would you say you have in a 55 at any given time (average). five hundred

Is the system the "feeders" are in completely seperate from store tanks or attached? separate

Does each of these "feeder" tanks have it's own filtration or are they combined? each has its own filtration, but i'm willing to combine, and i'd like to do away with the individual 55's

What kind of filtration are you currently running on these tanks? waterfalls, canister filters

How many 55g tanks are you presently using? four

Do you "stage" the fish (fist in first out) or do new arrivals get added to the current tank? new arrivals added to current tank

Are you presently using RO or RO/DI water in these tanks? no, should i?

How often are you currently doing water changes on these tanks? Usually once every two or three days, but i want lowest possible maintanence, as i'm only there three or four days per week


How many would you say out of a 100 will die on you presently? 25-50% it just depends. the thing about it is, sometimes none will die, and others (when ammonia spikes) all of them die.


What kind of readings are you getting for ammonia, nitrite and nitrates? high on all of them, that's the problem. reading vary greatly though.
 
Wow all for in store use? Personally I wouldn't use feeder fish that much. They aren't that good for many fish unless they are gutpacked (especially not good for marine fish). I'd try and use more pellet, flake and frozen foods. But back to the question...

Going with the least amount of change/work. First of all running the water through at least an RO system would probably be a good thing to do. At least the chlorines would get removed from the water along with some other nasties.

BUT it may not be needed. Here is what I'd probably try and do and see how this would work. Get a 55 gallon plastic barrel and make sure it is clean. Fill with tap water and add a declorinator type product for chorines/chloramines (which ever your city uses). This type of product will bind up ammonia too.

You can experiment by hand first if you want or pick up a couple of cheap pumps if you don't already have them in the store like the minijets or even aqualifters and an auto top-off unit. Connect the top-off unit to your worst tank and put a small pump on a timer in the tank with it going to drain. The idea would be to have it run everyday and drain 20-25% (experiment to see what keeps levels down) of the tank. The topoff would then pump the fresh declorinated water into the tank to the proper level.

In a nutshell an automated 25% daily water change. Try this for a week or so and see if it fixed the problem. If so we can automate the whole thing so you don't need to pre-treat the water in the separate container ahead of time but it will cost a little more and we want to see if this fixes the problem first (diagnose/test). You might find out a daily 10% change on each tank is good enough or maybe a 10% water change done every 12 hours is better. The point is to just find what works and keeps the levels down.

There are of course many ways to solve the problem but for this unique situation just using declorinated tap water is going to probably be the easiest and cheapest way of doing it if automated.

Keep us posted on your results and we can work from them to do the whole "feeder" system.

Carlo
 
i like that idea, but we were trying to shoot for changing over to keeping all goldfish in one bin, a larger container. and I'll talk to them about your idea. I misunderstood your question as well, we DO sell the feeders that i'm talking about, they're just not in an area accessable to customers.
 
Bigger holding tanks, and better filters. 500 goldfish, etc in a 55 is awful crowded.

Something like a homemade wetdry/trickle filter would be cheap, easy, and efficent and would handle the large bioload pretty well with minimal upkeep on the filter.

Also, getting less fish in, and rotating the systems on a first in, first out cycle should help as well, and would allow for occasional massive water changes.
 
Why not just constant water changes? Water is cheap. Set up an overflow to a drain and just run the water. You could set it up to do 100% a day and probably be fine.

Gold fish and rosy-reds are both coldwater fish anyways.
 
That was something I was leaning towards Rich but didn't really think it would be needed. A 25% water change is a lot of "fresh" water every day.

What I was mostly concerned with is the chlorine. Now if they put a couple GAC filters inline on the tap water then this could easily be done and they could actually do X times turnover a day if needed.

I myself would really like to see a less fish in each tank too but since the fish are destined to death anyway it's kind of a mute point. :)

Carlo
 
I second the motion for a flow through system. Use an inline carbon or carbon/zeolite filter to remove chlorine/chloramines.

Have it on a constant drip, so it drops the temperature 10 degrees F. The cooler water will hold more oxygen.

You could slowly drip peroxide with a dosing pump or i.v. bag to increase redox potential and dissolved oxygen, but I doubt it's worth the trouble.

Methylene blue and malachite green will keep the gills clear and aid in breathing, but it will discolour the water and require daily dosing.

Avoid the use of antibiotics and formalin, as they will deplete the dissolved oxygen rate. Mardel's Maroxy is stabilized chlorine that will help with broad spectrum disease control, without adversely affecting water quality.

Adding salt daily will also aid in parasite and fungal infections and the development of a healthy slime coat.

You should use Seachem's Prime or Kordon's Novaqua for the first few days at least.

Adding an extra sponge filter with air lift will also help in gas exchange and water quality.

Remove all dead and dying fish immediately.

These are all band-aid solutions. The best plan is to keep them in a remote location with only a few on display where space is at a premium. It's not good for the fish to be over-crowded, and your customers will be turned off by the site of it.
 
when I was waaay into cichlids I set up a plywood tank with a 50 mil plastic liner (think window plastic, huge rolls at home depot el cheapo). I plopped a simple bulkhead in the bottom of the makeshift tank with a normal spigot and hose that ran outside, and of course filled the thing with a hose (this was about 12 years ago, excuse the non RO idea). For filtration I had beleive it or not a sump pump that ran water through a second plywood and plastic setup that ran from top down, top layer was coarse foam, middle layer was activated charcoal in (dont laugh) pantyhose.... and the bottom layer was a finer foam on top of a bunch of broken up concrete rubble. I dont remember where I got the foam (I think it was from a plastic suitcase deal) but I broke up several concrete test cylinders for the bio uh... chunks.

I'd rinse out the foam and replace the carbon and use the concrete as my bio filter so it rarely got any attention. Once a month I'd drain around half the "pond" and refill as a water change

sad kinda rig nowadays but it worked pretty decently then for raising feeders (I kept feeder guppies in the thing). I didnt have too many deaths and since they spawned like mad I was able to pull out enough to feed my tanks. I dont really remember the actual size but I seem to remember that the "tank" bottom was a single 4x8 sheet and the walls were about waist level, it was definately a large monster.
 
Make a huge trickle filter, that will take care of ammonia. All you need is a big container full of bioballs and a way to evenly distribute the water over top. A tall water tank could be modified for such a purpose. In fact, you probably don't even need to trickle it as long as the water is well areated, since what you're really after is surface area for nitrifying bacteria. You could get a big tank/container of any type, plumb it on opposite ends, install baffles to create a long flow path through the tank, and fill it with bioballs or chunks of foam. This is basically what those big pond filters are, no?

Get an auto water change setup to take care of nitrate.
 
I agree with burris. Water changes would help but you will still need something to handle the ammonia. The stores I worked at used two Penguin 400's on each 55 gallon feeder tank. I would call them successful setups.

A cheap trickle filter or a fluidized bed filter would work too.

Keep in mind though - feeder fish are starved before they are shipped. Any feeder setup, no matter how good it is, will still experience high mortality rates. As another poster mentioned above - be sure to clear dead fish as quick as possible and try to stage them so you move your oldest stock first.
 
rossthefishman, I know you said the ammonia, nitrites & nitrates are high and vary but could you do a test of these three and give us a snapshot test result?

I think this would help since HIGH doesn't really mean to much unless we know HOW HIGH.

Carlo
 
try carbon and biger size air pumps you should be able to due a 10% water per day with no chlorine remover also you are not adding the bag water salt will help there is not a lot of money in feeders try this cheap way first also cheak out some of the koi fish holding tanks
 
run a line into a filter sock or a foam pad that you can change weekly. I tank with a lot of bioballs would also help. You just need to take/keep everything that is going to turn into ammonia out of the water by using RO/DI or RO water, cleaning up dead fish, running some kind of filter mesh, etc. At our shop we probably have about a 10%-15% mortality rate with this type of filtration.
 
I second the fluidized bed- easy to implement and have huge biofiltration capacity. The Lifeguard units work fine.
I also like the constant flow idea, only need a drip rate, not much flow. Just need to keep up with the chloramines.
 
Hydrosponge filters are all you need for biological filtration for feeder guppies. They are the industry standard. Commercial feeder goldfish systems don't use biofilters, because water changes are more efficient, and nitrification doesn't work in the cold temperatures they are kept in, and ammonia is non-toxic in cold water.

Chemicals (Amquel or Prime) are used to remove the toxic ion of ammonia in shipping water, as temperature will climb, but these chemicals aren't cost effective for holding tanks. Zeolites will bind ammonia, but they are quickly expended in crowded holding tanks.

I had a 30,000 gallon wholesale facility for 8 years and ran all of my tanks with huge water changes (via 3 x 750 gallon holding tanks to eliminate chloramine, aerate, and heat to 78F) and Hydrosponge filters. gas exchange is carried out at the air/watyer interface at the surface of the aquarium. Air lift filters efficiently move water from the bottom of the tank to the surface for oxygnation. Power filters don't offer this efficiency.
http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/4927/cid/1340

Bioball wet/dry systems are great for gas exchange, but lack the surface area and stable conditions offered by sponge filters.

Fluidized bed filters are very compact, but are not a stable environment for bio-films to develop for nitrification. Approximately 80% of the nitrifying bacteria in your system is found on detritus. This doesn't mean you should encourage an accumulation of detritus, but you do need to have a stable environment for it to exist on media, where well oxygenated water can pass by, and nitrifying bacteria can live.

Nitrifying bacteria grows as a film on the detritus, which is in turn, is attached to some form of filter media. It continues to grow, layer upon layer, until it becomes unstable (heavy) and sloughs off. As one area sloughs off, another is proliferating in a constant cycle of growth and die-off. Fluidized bed filters and wet/dry filters cause wash-off, whereby the flow of water causes premature breakdown of mature bio-films. The constant grind of a fluidized beds are therefore a poor home for delicate bio-films to populate.

Biowheel, and sponge filters are the most efficient, stable sites for nitrifying bacteria. Biowheels are better than sponge filters while they are running properly, as they offer greater gas exchange for fish respiration, more oxygen for bacteria, and pre-filtered water to limit the collection of detritus; however, they require electrical motors, frequent cleaning, and the moving parts need servicing to assure the wheel keeps spinning. While sponge filters are slightly less efficient, they are very reliable with little maintenance required and a low operating cost.

The Hydrosponge is the industry standard because they are durable, have a large sponge, move air well for gas exchange at the air/water interface at the surface of the tank, and they have a spacer at the bottom, so it doesn't become too much of a mechanical filter. They are balanced and weighted so they don't fall over easily or float to the surface. Suction cup and box-style sponge filters are problematic, as they tend to fall off the wall and float to the surface where they cease to function.

Hydrosponge filters are not mechanical filters intended to remove POC (particulate organic carbon), they are designed as biological filters. They will collect some particulate matter, so they should be gently squeezed in a bucket of aquarium water to keep the pores open periodically. If they get really dirty, you aren't keeping up with manual siphoning of the tank bottom. They can be thoroughly cleaned if this should happen, but a well established sponge from another tank, should take its' place, or only wash one of the two or more sponges in the tank at a time. Stagger cleaning over weeks or months.

A steady flow of new water will drastically reduce ammonia on its' own. Cooler water has a higher D.O. (dissolved oxygen) rate, and decreases the toxicity of ammonia. Seachem Ammonia Alerts are a good idea for constant monitoring. Higher D.O. will aid in fish respiration, and nitrification.

Nitrate will also stay low, as the water changes will circumvent the nitrification process entirely. Nitrate will not adversely affect fish health in retail holding tanks. Long term exposure to elevated levels of nitrate will inhibit growth, but you are only holding the fish for a week, and you certainly aren't growing them.

As Cayars mentioned earlier, feeder fish are a poor food source for any fish. They have little nutritional value (no EFA's etc.), and are vectors for disease transmission.

Most fish mortality in commercial systems is due to poor fish health. Prophylactic treatments that do not adversely affect water quality, will further reduce casualties. Dead and dying fish decrease water quality, so a trickdown effect causes further losses.
 
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