free pipefish in east central al.

[knap_123]

Anyone near Alex city, al. I went to the beach and I caught a lot of gulf pipefish. I kept some and have what I want to keep. But I have some I want to give away, Maybe 5 or 6. P.u.o.

 

[Autonomy]

Why not just return them back to the wild where they should be and instead consider captive bred ones in the future.

 

[rayjay]

VERY DIFFICULT to find captive bred pipe fish in North America.
However, I would agree that it best to have taken only what you wanted for your own use.

 

[Autonomy]

I'm going to dig my heels on with this one, it is an issue that I'm very passionate about. Its very DIFFICULT to acquire many certain marine species that would be the envy of any aquarist here in Australia, but that doesn't make it right to take what we may think is rightfully ours from the wild. Mother Earth and all the species of life upon it should be seen as a gift. It is an unfortunate fact that humans have not taken good care of this Earth and all of its species which have been placed in our guardianship. Hopefully, it is not too late. That's why I feel that acquiring any wild species for our own selfish needs and wants is just down right cruel and simply just self-indulgent. Common sense also shows that the life span of any wild caught marine species, tends to be shorter than that of its captive breed cousins. Only captive breed species for me, forever!

 

[TamiW]

Autonomy, where do captive bred fish come from; if not originally the wild? There just aren't captive bred pipefish out there. One breeder I know of is focusing on them and having some success, but he can't supply everyone. And his broodstock came from the wild; not magically dropped in by the broodstock fairy.

Collecting and immediately going to an aquarium is much better than what most fish go through between capture and home aquarium. I have to strongly disagree with your logic; there just aren't enough captive bred fish. If they do exist; by all means they should be the first choice. But if not, then they have to come from somewhere if only to start a captive breeding program. But where is the line drawn? Who is allowed to get wild fish and who isn't?

If you really don't agree with taking fish from the wild, then you can't justify the initial acquisition of the broodstock for captive bred fish and should probably shut down your tanks and get out of the hobby. I'm not suggesting you do that, but I am suggesting that your logic here is flawed.

As for gulf pipefish, there are zillions of them. I caught them anytime I waved nets through seagrass beds in Florida. They are everywhere. Not that they should be exploited with no thought of their population, but right now, taking some for personal use is not going to make the tiniest dent in their population.

 

[velvetelvis]

If you really don't agree with taking fish from the wild, then you can't justify the initial acquisition of the broodstock for captive bred fish and should probably shut down your tanks and get out of the hobby. I'm not suggesting you do that, but I am suggesting that your logic here is flawed.

I can see what Autonomy is saying, though. All of my fish are captive-bred, and I do believe it's the most responsible choice, when available. I'm also troubled by how many fish are collected and then die in captivity due to irresponsible care (or unsuitability for captivity in the first place). A lot of animals' live are squandered in this hobby, unfortunately.

 

[rayjay]

Autonomy, where do captive bred fish come from; if not originally the wild?

Also, to maintain a healthy "bloodline" you need to use wild caught just to "renew the bloodline" from time to time or you will have too much inbreeding and have an inferior seahorse product.

 

[TamiW]

I can see what Autonomy is saying, though. All of my fish are captive-bred, and I do believe it's the most responsible choice, when available. I'm also troubled by how many fish are collected and then die in captivity due to irresponsible care (or unsuitability for captivity in the first place). A lot of animals' live are squandered in this hobby, unfortunately.

Oh I do agree, if captive bred is available, then it should be chosen. I think many/most aquarist do though. My issue is with species that there isn't any captive bred alternatives. Yes, we all should get cracking and get breeding, but not everyone is going to do that (incidentally, breeding pipefish is a long term goal of mine, but I don't know when/if I'll succeed, and right now I don't have the tank space).

Rayjay also raises a good point, you have to refresh the bloodlines from time to time or you'll have inbreed fish. There may come a point when enough species are bred by enough different sources that maybe that won't be necessary - but that is highly unlikely. There just aren't enough fish breeders or even aquarists to buy the fish to keep enough of all the different species in captivity without any outcrossing.

If you look at the freshwater world, it's possible with aggressive culling you may get to the point where you bypass the genetic bottle neck and breed out deformities. However, that takes a lot of discipline on the part of the breeder to cull deformed fish. Considering the number of deformed clownfish I see, I doubt it's going to happen.

 

[Autonomy]

Autonomy, where do captive bred fish come from; if not originally the wild? There just aren't captive bred pipefish out there. One breeder I know of is focusing on them and having some success, but he can't supply everyone. And his broodstock came from the wild; not magically dropped in by the broodstock fairy (FishGrrl).

Autonomy:- No, unfortunately I simply don’t agree with taking fish or anything else for that matter, from the wild. I am fully aware of the fact that originally our captive bred fish did come from wild caught parents, but currently I feel it shouldn’t be the case. Perhaps the emphasis should be placed on the word currently, rather than originally.

FishGrrl:- Collecting and immediately going to an aquarium is much better than what most fish go through between capture and home aquarium. I have to strongly disagree with your logic; there just aren't enough captive bred fish. If they do exist; by all means they should be the first choice. But if not, then they have to come from somewhere if only to start a captive breeding program. But where is the line drawn? Who is allowed to get wild fish and who isn't?)

Autonomy:- I really don’t see the logic behind removing a creature which was born free and was once free to roam the endless waters of its ocean environment and then having it placed in what would seem as a ‘goldfish bowl’ environment in comparison, as being a better option than acquiring and transporting a captive breed species.But where is the line drawn? Who is allowed to get wild fish and who isn't? 'Where is the line drawn? Who is allowed to get wild fish and who isn't' you state. Again, it is clearly evident that patience is needed when dealing with this hobby, and though it may take some time, why not just leave it up to those who are able and knowledgeable enough to care for and breed wild caught stock so that eventually all within this hobby, will be able to enjoy strong, healthy, happy stock.

FishGrrl:- If you really don't agree with taking fish from the wild, then you can't justify the initial acquisition of the broodstock for captive bred fish and should probably shut down your tanks and get out of the hobby. I'm not suggesting you do that, but I am suggesting that your logic here is flawed.

Autonomy:- Oh but I feel that I can justify continuing in this hobby because I don’t, or have I ever taken any stock from the wild. Captive bred species have originated from wild caught parents, and obviously it wasn’t the broodstock fairy (as you suggested) or Santa Claus for that matter, but it was however, dedicated breeders who obviously knew how to meet the demands of their wild caught stock and breed them successfully so that I am now able to say thanks, for being able to currently stock my aquarium with captive breed species. Though there has been no response to date from Knap_123’s initial post in regards to this debate, I find that his/her le se faire approach to taking whatever they want and then giving the rest away quite distasteful. I don’t see any wording within his/her statement that indicates that their initial intentions of acquiring wild caught stock was solely for breeding reasons.

FishGrrl:- As for gulf pipefish, there are zillions of them. I caught them anytime I waved nets through seagrass beds in Florida. They are everywhere. Not that they should be exploited with no thought of their population, but right now, taking some for personal use is not going to make the tiniest dent in their population.

Autonomy:- It usually always starts with just one person and then it tends to escalates to the point where everyone is helping themselves to whatever species they believe they have the right to obtain from the wild. Unfortunately, that’s when our earth and its complex ecosystems tends to run into some serious, and at times irreversible trouble. Perhaps, you may be too young or ill informed about the ivory trading era and how it all began? As is usually the case, one individual wanted ‘just one piece of ivory’. Then somebody else wanted ‘just one’ (except they had no idea that many others also wanted ‘just one’), and then somebody else wanted ‘one’. . . . etc. and that’s how the wild elephants were hunted down, almost to the point of extinction. It does take a long time to regenerate and correct whatever damage has been done to any ecosystem, which happens when too many greedy, inpatient souls just help themselves to what they think they are entitled to without stopping to even think about and contemplate the future consequences their actions will entail.

 

[Autonomy]

I can see what Autonomy is saying, though. All of my fish are captive-bred, and I do believe it's the most responsible choice, when available. I'm also troubled by how many fish are collected and then die in captivity due to irresponsible care (or unsuitability for captivity in the first place). A lot of animals' live are squandered in this hobby, unfortunately.

My sentiments exactly, there are many within this hobby who are incapable of providing the quality care which wild caught species require in order to survive. Just because we can doesn’t mean we should.

 

[Autonomy]

Oh I do agree, if captive bred is available, then it should be chosen. I think many/most aquarist do though. My issue is with species that there isn't any captive bred alternatives. Yes, we all should get cracking and get breeding, but not everyone is going to do that (incidentally, breeding pipefish is a long term goal of mine, but I don't know when/if I'll succeed, and right now I don't have the tank space).

Autonomy:- Twenty years ago I dreamt and wished of one day having seahorses. I even swam with them as a child and knew exactly where to find them, but never would I have thought of helping myself to something that was born free and rightfully, wasn't mine. Twenty years on and look how far we have come, look at where we are now. Captive bred seahorses that have been conditioned to eat frozen mysis shrimp, captive bred seahorse which spontaneously breed in their own aquarium environment. That's why I believe that patience, especially in this hobby is a virtue. My captive bred seahorses started pairing up and breeding, so now I breed them myself. There are many marine species that are currently classified as endangered or threatened, so I feel it would be immoral to acquire wild caught stock just because you want one and they aren't offered as captive bred. Especially, if you don't even have the intention or know-how when it comes to breeding that species, even though I do agree with the fact that all marine livestock have initially (once upon a time) originated from wild caught parents.

FishGrrl:- Rayjay also raises a good point, you have to refresh the bloodlines from time to time or you'll have inbreed fish. There may come a point when enough species are bred by enough different sources that maybe that won't be necessary - but that is highly unlikely. There just aren't enough fish breeders or even aquarists to buy the fish to keep enough of all the different species in captivity without any outcrossing.

FishGrrl:- If you look at the freshwater world, it's possible with aggressive culling you may get to the point where you bypass the genetic bottle neck and breed out deformities. However, that takes a lot of discipline on the part of the breeder to cull deformed fish. Considering the number of deformed clownfish I see, I doubt it's going to happen.

Autonomy:- It does take time, but eventually we tend to get there. For those of you who are familiar with freshwater discus (Symphysodon), you would also be familiar with some of the many discus hybrids which are now readily available and sold at very reasonable prices. Yes, it is a fact that all these discus were once bred from wild caught Heckel parents (Symphysodon discus discus), and together with patience, perseverance, time, knowledge and the experience of dedicated breeders we've come to the point where the need for wild caught discus from the Amazon isn't required.

 

[Autonomy]

Also, to maintain a healthy "bloodline" you need to use wild caught just to "renew the bloodline" from time to time or you will have too much inbreeding and have an inferior seahorse product.

I do agree with your opinion here and that's why I believe that although it may take some time for aquarists to enjoy captive bred stock which at this point in time is unavailable, why not just leave it up to those who have the capacity and knowledge to care and breed wild caught stock? Eventually, we will be able to enjoy strong, healthy, happy captive bred stock. My fellow breeders and I have exchanged many generations of seahorse livestock between us so that inbreeding can be slowly decreased. Yes, it may take a while but that doesn’t mean that it won’t happen. There will always be a debate on this topic and it would be interesting to hear the sentiments and views of other aquarists on this site. Afterall, patience especially in this hobby, definitely is a virtue. The various threads under the topic of ‘Responsible Reef Keeping’ which is available on the Reef Central site does make for some very interesting reading.

 

[nanafish]

Just to take something from the wild to save $$ on populating your tank should be a NO- NO. However if you plan on breeding them that's a different story. There are pipehorses - you just have to search the internet for them and pay.

 

[TamiW]

Just to take something from the wild to save $$ on populating your tank should be a NO- NO. However if you plan on breeding them that's a different story. There are pipehorses - you just have to search the internet for them and pay.

But those pipefish are coming from collectors who get them from the same source. So you're not really preventing anything by letting collectors collect them. Plus you're adding another step in the collection chain. The quicker you get from wild to aquarium, the better off all live stock is.

 

[TamiW]

Autonomy:- Oh but I feel that I can justify continuing in this hobby because I don't, or have I ever taken any stock from the wild. Captive bred species have originated from wild caught parents, and obviously it wasn't the broodstock fairy (as you suggested) or Santa Claus for that matter, but it was however, dedicated breeders who obviously knew how to meet the demands of their wild caught stock and breed them successfully so that I am now able to say thanks, for being able to currently stock my aquarium with captive breed species. Though there has been no response to date from Knap_123's initial post in regards to this debate, I find that his/her le se faire approach to taking whatever they want and then giving the rest away quite distasteful. I don't see any wording within his/her statement that indicates that their initial intentions of acquiring wild caught stock was solely for breeding reasons.

Emphasis mine.

That's not at all how captive breeding came about. In the same way there are no broodstock fairies, there was no magic breeder that came out of the womb and just *knew* how to breed fish. Scores of fish died before anyone knew how to even keep them alive. Then some people got lucky, and the ones they kept alive eventually bred. Some people tried raising them. And failed. And failed, and failed some more.

The other problem is that there aren't enough captive bred species to keep the hobby alive. That's wonderful that you have no interest in wild caught species, but the hobby would die tomorrow if the only fish that were sold were captive bred. Walk through any fish store any you're lucky if 20% are captive bred, and they'll mostly be clownfish.

And do you have cleanup crews in your tank? Snails, hermit crabs, shrimp? I'm going to go out on a limb and say they came from the wild. (Some have been bred in captivity but most have no commercial value.)

I'm not suggesting that anyone shouldn't try to keep captive bred if possible. Far from it. But wild caught fish are just a reality of the hobby.

For hundreds of years, people have collected fish just as knap_123 did, and for some people that is as much a part of the hobby as keeping fish. It's different from what you think makes up the hobby, but it's not wrong. The people who discovered the majority of species weren't researchers or scientists we think of today, they were rich guys that traveled around the world catching new species and preserving them because that was their hobby.

The other thing to remember is just the vast number of aquatic animals that died and will die in this hobby. This is both wild caught and captive bred individuals. If you're not okay with that, you shouldn't be in the hobby. I think a lot of people want to forget that is a reality of the aquarium hobby. With captive bred fish, the causes range from early die-off in rearing to culling deformed individuales to shipping stress and then ultimately hobbyist error.

I do think fish should be sustainably caught, but I don't think there is any reason to stop wild caught fish in the hobby. Unless you ban aquariums, period.

It usually always starts with just one person and then it tends to escalates to the point where everyone is helping themselves to whatever species they believe they have the right to obtain from the wild. Unfortunately, that's when our earth and its complex ecosystems tends to run into some serious, and at times irreversible trouble. Perhaps, you may be too young or ill informed about the ivory trading era and how it all began? As is usually the case, one individual wanted "˜just one piece of ivory'. Then somebody else wanted "˜just one' (except they had no idea that many others also wanted "˜just one'), and then somebody else wanted "˜one'. . . . etc. and that's how the wild elephants were hunted down, almost to the point of extinction. It does take a long time to regenerate and correct whatever damage has been done to any ecosystem, which happens when too many greedy, inpatient souls just help themselves to what they think they are entitled to without stopping to even think about and contemplate the future consequences their actions will entail.

But that's not what's happening here. Every state in the US manages their own fisheries. If there was a problem with pipefish populations, there would be a bag limit. There are in some places, like Florida (though they're more generalist, like you can't take x number of ornamental fish).

Autonomy:- It does take time, but eventually we tend to get there. For those of you who are familiar with freshwater discus (Symphysodon), you would also be familiar with some of the many discus hybrids which are now readily available and sold at very reasonable prices. Yes, it is a fact that all these discus were once bred from wild caught Heckel parents (Symphysodon discus discus), and together with patience, perseverance, time, knowledge and the experience of dedicated breeders we've come to the point where the need for wild caught discus from the Amazon isn't required.

That doesn't accurately reflect the state of affairs with captive bred marine fish, especially clownfish. They're relatively easy to breed, and people see them as cash cows so don't bother culling malformed ones. With discus, you needed to be a very dedicated aquarist to keep and breed them. Plus, to be honest, I think a lot of the ethics of the old guard aquarists have flown out the window. The other problem is that people have gotten extremely sensitive on the subject of culling, refusing to do so because it's distasteful. Distasteful or not, it's necessary for any serious breeder but instead many malformed fish make it to the market, or even worse, are bred themselves.

 

[knap_123]

I'm still here, and I still have my pipefish who are healthy and fat! I kept 8 out of the high numbers of pf I caught. 4 for me and 4 for a friend. But they weren't able to take there's so i kept them till I found them a home. I'm not going to argue with you guys or let my day be affected by your feelings. I respect life and do not intentionally do anything to harm it if I don't have to.

 

[Fishypapa]

I see both sides but really, they went directly from wild to a tank without the use of explosives, cyanide, or any other harmful way of catching them. Don't just jump on the guy for trying to find them homes now that they're out.

 

[michaelkittrell]

Thank you knap for doing your best to find a home for the extra pipefish.

 

[leveldrummer]

I'm still here, and I still have my pipefish who are healthy and fat! I kept 8 out of the high numbers of pf I caught. 4 for me and 4 for a friend. But they weren't able to take there's so i kept them till I found them a home. I'm not going to argue with you guys or let my day be affected by your feelings. I respect life and do not intentionally do anything to harm it if I don't have to.

Hey man, i sent you a private message, can you check it and get back to me about my questions? :beer:

 

[knap_123]

Sorry buddy, reply sent. Found a home for the guys with a friend who raises lined sh. She loved them and will be a awesome keeper for the guys.:celeb2: