Fully stocked reef tank ICH Treatment!!!! IT WORKS!!!

[jason2459]

I am writing this with every intention of being PEACEFUL and am PEACEFULLY asking what seems to *me* to be legitimate questions here, in a PEACEFUL manner.

That having been said...

It seems to me, after reading and reading and reading especially this particular Forum, that if someone insists that something doesn't work (whatever it is) then everyone who agrees with that person gets kudos and everyone who disagrees gets vilified.

I'm wondering at the logic presented here, regarding this stuff. Specifically, the basic statements that say "if there really were a medical cure for ich, it'd be well known by everyone and for sale all over the world" that kind of thing.
Um, my question is a "but" question. Here it is:
But, isn't that exactly the case? It's well known, it's available everywhere. Just like several other ich treatments. Yet if this Forum is to be understood, none of them work?

I mean, the LFS sells ich treatments of varying kinds and they are available all over the world, they usually have the same basic active drugs in them, people have reported varying results from perfect success to perfect failure and nobody can prove nor disprove that any of the people who failed at using it were even following the directions...

If none of these treatments are worth anything, if they're all just a big scam or lie or whatever someone is saying when they couldn't make it work for themselves, then why are they continually being sold at so many places literally all over the world for so many, many years and with so many reports of success?

If there were NO reports of success, then nobody would buy them and they'd stop selling them.

I'm just extending the logic that is being presented here.

I hope that my point is seen. I'm trying to be clear, not trying to flame anyone nor insult anyone, not at all, not even a little bit.

Thank you.

There are many things that have been sold and still being sold or claimed that are false or misleading. A reef safe ich treatment has been one of them.

Does metronidazole offer any therapeutic value? It may not cure an infection on its own but does it offer any suppression or benefit?


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If there's a secondary bacterial infection metronidazole may help if its a bacteria that metronidazole effects.

I've ran metro for 10 dosages over 11 days in my mixed reef with bubble tips with no noticeable negative effects except for a major reduction in at least one type of dinoflagelets. I saw no reduction in many types of bacteria and other planktonic life seen under a microscope before and after dosage.

 

[ThRoewer]

I am writing this with every intention of being PEACEFUL and am PEACEFULLY asking what seems to *me* to be legitimate questions here, in a PEACEFUL manner.

That having been said...

It seems to me, after reading and reading and reading especially this particular Forum, that if someone insists that something doesn't work (whatever it is) then everyone who agrees with that person gets kudos and everyone who disagrees gets vilified.

I'm wondering at the logic presented here, regarding this stuff. Specifically, the basic statements that say "if there really were a medical cure for ich, it'd be well known by everyone and for sale all over the world" that kind of thing.
Um, my question is a "but" question. Here it is:
But, isn't that exactly the case? It's well known, it's available everywhere. Just like several other ich treatments. Yet if this Forum is to be understood, none of them work?

I mean, the LFS sells ich treatments of varying kinds and they are available all over the world, they usually have the same basic active drugs in them, people have reported varying results from perfect success to perfect failure and nobody can prove nor disprove that any of the people who failed at using it were even following the directions...

If none of these treatments are worth anything, if they're all just a big scam or lie or whatever someone is saying when they couldn't make it work for themselves, then why are they continually being sold at so many places literally all over the world for so many, many years and with so many reports of success?

If there were NO reports of success, then nobody would buy them and they'd stop selling them.

I'm just extending the logic that is being presented here.

I hope that my point is seen. I'm trying to be clear, not trying to flame anyone nor insult anyone, not at all, not even a little bit.

Thank you.

There has been quite a bit research done on Cryptocaryon (ich) and there are very few things that actually kill it (without killing the fish as well) - all of those are most definitely not tolerated by corals and 99% of all other inverts.

There is another factor that is usually not considered: natural or acquired immunity against Cryptocaryon. Some fish never get it (at least I have never seen a single Banggai cardinal with ich even in the midst of the worst outbreaks) while other acquire immunity after surviving an outbreak. Also quite common is that some fish acquire immunity during an outbreak while others die - this depends in general on the general fitness level a fish has and the stress it is exposed to.

Acquired immunity is what's actually behind the success stories of so called "Reef Safe" medications.

You always read "some fish died, but the rest pulled through and are ich free now. It took a few months but it works.", right?
Well, it would had worked just the same if no "medication" had been added. The fish that died were the weak or stressed ones, possibly also the ones that brought it in in the first place.
I know, because I've seen ich "disappear" quite often, even in QTs where the fish were not in ideal health at the beginning. I had new fish come down with a mild ich infection and beat it just fine. Enough food and low stress is sometimes all it takes for a fish to get a handle on ich.

But if you see that the next wave is worse than the previous, a more direct course of action is required: TTM, Hyposalinity, copper,...

 

[jason2459]

PaulB's tank is an example of long term success with no treatments other then feeding whole healthy foods like black worms, sliced up clams, and freshly hatched baby brine shrimp.

 

[Deinonych]

Here's a great commentary by the esteemed Richard Ross on these types of threads:

https://reefs.com/forum/reefs-magazine/77954-skeptical-reefkeeping-richard-ross.html

 

[Deinonych]

Here's a great commentary by the esteemed Richard Ross on these types of threads:

https://reefs.com/forum/reefs-magazine/77954-skeptical-reefkeeping-richard-ross.html

 

[sandwi54]

I don't understand the logic of justifying not quarantining because there are a few cases of "success." These successes are most likely due to luck - ich was not present on new fish and/or certain fish have acquired immunity. For every one case of "success," there are ten more that failed and owners getting frustrated and leaving the hobby.

Most hobbyists that stay long-term-ish (3 years or more) usually have come to understand the importance of quarantine, and that's why they are able to maintain healthy tanks CONSISTENTLY - this is the keyword. One may luck out and buy a fish or two without ich to begin with, but that luck quickly fades when the number of fish acquired climbs. The only sure way to have a healthy tank of fish is to follow a strict protocol of quarantine on every incoming fish. This is what I did - quarantining EVERY new fish for 6 weeks and run through two rounds of prazipro and 4 weeks of cupramine - and I have 25 healthy fish, completely free of any disease or parasites, in my 375g + sump.

There are always lucky exceptions, but the only scientifically proven methods for CONSISTENTLY eliminating ich are copper, hypo salinity, and tank transfer.

 

[scuzy]

I agree with quarantining. Since the last few battles I ttm am new fish and prazi them during ttm. Then observation and into main display. 30+ fish all looking healthy and clean off white spots.


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[jason2459]

I don't understand the logic of justifying not quarantining because there are a few cases of "success." These successes are most likely due to luck - ich was not present on new fish and/or certain fish have acquired immunity. For every one case of "success," there are ten more that failed and owners getting frustrated and leaving the hobby.

Most hobbyists that stay long-term-ish (3 years or more) usually have come to understand the importance of quarantine, and that's why they are able to maintain healthy tanks CONSISTENTLY - this is the keyword. One may luck out and buy a fish or two without ich to begin with, but that luck quickly fades when the number of fish acquired climbs. The only sure way to have a healthy tank of fish is to follow a strict protocol of quarantine on every incoming fish. This is what I did - quarantining EVERY new fish for 6 weeks and run through two rounds of prazipro and 4 weeks of cupramine - and I have 25 healthy fish, completely free of any disease or parasites, in my 375g + sump.

There are always lucky exceptions, but the only scientifically proven methods for CONSISTENTLY eliminating ich are copper, hypo salinity, and tank transfer.

You do understand PaulB's tank is over 40 years old and I think around 45 years old now right?

Also, I did not advocate to not QT only stated PaulB is a good example which his tank is since it has been around a very long time with many different fish additions over that time period. I do think some type of QT is beneficial even if it's just so the fish can get acclimated to what you're trying to feed with out being harassed.

 

[sandwi54]

You do understand PaulB's tank is over 40 years old and I think around 45 years old now right?

Also, I did not advocate to not QT only stated PaulB is a good example which his tank is since it has been around a very long time with many different fish additions over that time period. I do think some type of QT is beneficial even if it's just so the fish can get acclimated to what you're trying to feed with out being harassed.

You did not get my point. The keyword is consistency. How many new hobbyists do you think can achieve what PaulB did? You can't use a one-off example to make a generalization. There are many hobbyists who maintain pristine water condition and healthy feeding and still lose out to ich.

Humans have a tendency to want to take the easy way out, and your stating that PaulB is a good example gives new hobbyists false hope that they can prevent/cure ich with maintaining good environment, which cannot be consistently achieved. It's like asking a new driver to drift around a road course like a professional racecar driver - he/she will most likely crash the car. The only sure way to not have ich in the display tank is to not let it get into the tank, and that's the job of the quarantine tank - this is what I am advocating for all new hobbyists.

The importance of QT is much higher when you already have a whole DT of fish like you and me. Would you risk putting an extra fish with unknown health condition into a DT full of 20 healthy fish? I sure won't, because if I do that and all the fish contract disease/parasites, it'll be hell to try to treat them, which is the problem that many new hobbyists face.

 

[jason2459]

You did not get my point. The keyword is consistency. How many new hobbyists do you think can achieve what PaulB did? You can't use a one-off example to make a generalization. There are many hobbyists who maintain pristine water condition and healthy feeding and still lose out to ich.

Humans have a tendency to want to take the easy way out, and your stating that PaulB is a good example gives new hobbyists false hope that they can prevent/cure ich with maintaining good environment, which cannot be consistently achieved. The only sure way to not have ich in the display tank is to not let it get into the tank, and that's the job of the quarantine tank.

The importance of QT is much higher when you already have a whole DT of fish like you and me. Would you risk putting an extra fish with unknown health condition into a DT full of 20 healthy fish? I sure won't, because if I do that and all the fish contract disease/parasites, it'll be hell to try to treat them, which is the problem that many new hobbyists face.

Yeah, I don't think you got my point either. I'm not against QT at all.

 

[sandwi54]

Yeah, I don't think you got my point either. I'm not against QT at all.

I know you are not, but pointing out a "success story" of not quarantining when you advocate quarantining makes your position confusing.

 

[ThRoewer]

Anybody who has serious issues with ich and fish dying of it has a serious problem in his tank (and I mean not the ich by itself). In my experience healthy and well fed fish in a low stress environment have no issues to get a low level ich infection under control on their own - if they ever contract it in the first place.

This should not be understood as an endorsement to skip quarantine - you never want to add a fish straight to your DT before you have it stabilized and are sure it has nothing more serious.

Unfortunately I often see here outright crazy stocking lists that sometimes look like one of each fish on LifeAquaria's list.
Some peoples tanks look like I remember tanks from the 70s in Germany (only that the corals were just dead skeletons back then) - jam-packed with so many fish that only the oil is missing to make the sardine can impression perfect.
In the wild you only find fish densities like this with swarm fish or fish that school.
Even the Anthias you see in large numbers on the outer reefs usually keep a considerable distance from each other. Tangs, butterflies, angels and many other fish often prefer to be even further from others - even pairs need some space.

Being constantly crowded stresses fish out and turns them aggressive or causes them to get sick - there are enough diseases and disorders you simply can't quarantine against.

So even if I don't endorse putting fish straight into a DT (or would like old bottles as decoration), I agree with Paul B's approach of keeping fish in pairs, feed well and not to overstock like crazy.

 

[Spar]

Also keep in mind that PaulB only has a 100g tank. If '&%it hit the fan' and there was a massive Ich breakout, he could relatively easy remedy the situation.

Part of the reason I am a huge proponent of treating (TTM, etc) & QT (isolation/observation) is because with a 450g tank there is no option for failure. If I had a smaller tank (less than 150g), it is quite doubtful I would go to the extremes I go to now. If Ich popped up, I would just pull the fish out and treat them.

The risks of Velvet and Brook are what scare me to the point of advocating observation QT at a minimum. I just flat out don't agree in risking all tank inhabitants lives just to quickly throw a fish or multiple fish in the tank. It is so easy to just house fish in a separate, already cycled, tank for 4 weeks minimum.

 

[sandwi54]

Also keep in mind that PaulB only has a 100g tank. If '&%it hit the fan' and there was a massive Ich breakout, he could relatively easy remedy the situation.

Part of the reason I am a huge proponent of treating (TTM, etc) & QT (isolation/observation) is because with a 450g tank there is no option for failure. If I had a smaller tank (less than 150g), it is quite doubtful I would go to the extremes I go to now. If Ich popped up, I would just pull the fish out and treat them.

The risks of Velvet and Brook are what scare me to the point of advocating observation QT at a minimum. I just flat out don't agree in risking all tank inhabitants lives just to quickly throw a fish or multiple fish in the tank. It is so easy to just house fish in a separate, already cycled, tank for 4 weeks minimum.

++++1

In my 375g I have a few > 10" long fish that I purchased in juvenile form and grew to full-grown adults over the last 6 years (14" French angel, 12" Emperor angel, 10" Naso tang, 9" golden puffer, etc.), and there is no way in hell I will add a new fish without quarantining it with proper treatments and making sure it's 100% disease-free. Imagine the risk and hassle I have to go through if ich gets into my tank - I simply don't have enough space and equipment to properly treat all of these large fish.

If all one has is a 50g tank with a few small fish, then it may not pain him nearly as much to lose them to disease as me losing my prized fish that I grew from babies. That's the difference in motivation right there.

 

[Paul B]

Also keep in mind that PaulB only has a 100g tank. If '&%it hit the fan' and there was a massive Ich breakout, he could relatively easy remedy the situation.

.

Wow, I hope "&% doesn't hit the fan or else I would be up here.


But I heard that only happens after the tank is running for 46 years so next year, OMG I will be in trouble.
As for my water being pristine, the LFS tested it last week and found the nitrates to be 160. I think they are closer to 80 but what do I know. My phosphates are 2.0. Is that bad? I change about 100 gallons of water a year. But I am lazy, lazy and old, or old and lazy I can't figure out which. :facepalm:

I am sure out of the thousand or two thousand fish I have had absolutely none of them had ich, velvet, hoof and mouth disease or parrot fever because their health plan would have discovered it.
And, "all" of you guys are missing the point. I "purposely" do not quarantine because I want to enhance the immune system of my fish which is why I have never posted on a disease thread (about my fish) How many times have people who quarantined for 72 days posted on a disease thread? OK, raise your hand if you quarantined and found a disease later. :fish1:
OK, lets do this another way. Raise your hand if you have older fish than I have that have never been quarantined and have never gotten sick, Not even a headache or athletes foot in 25 years? :uhoh3:

I don't think I am playing Russian Roulette because I can't even speak Russian. The only word I know in Russian is "Vodka".
Go on the disease thread of this forum right now. I just did and there are 10 parasite posts already and it isn't even lunch time.
Fish should "never" get sick and you should never need Prizapro, copper, Rogain, Pepto Bismol or anything else except the correct food and maybe some nice pictures of Supermodels on the wall near your reef tank. :fun2:

 

[jason2459]

Yep, I wasn't going to speak for you. And you know I haven't missed your point.

Though I'm still not against QT. Just need to use it appropriately.

Like my leopard wrasse. It was the perfect place to get it adjusted to aquarium life, the foods I will be feeding it, and adjusted to my time zone lighting. I had seeded rocks and a substrate in there and set the lighting initially to the timezone it came from and adjusted slowly to mine.

 

[bvaughn7]

I've had to learn the hard way about QT with both fish and corals. Even after many years in the hobby being lucky. Bottom line I was impatient. Also upping my game to all SPS made a huge difference in what I had to learn to be successful. For a lot of people the "best" thing to do is what we "don't want" to do. That being said, even with QT there is still the possibility of something making it into your tank. It's not 100%. HOWEVER it does increase YOUR success which is good for YOU and your beautiful tank. I think everyone here is committed to people getting to be successful. And sometimes that does not get communicated well when people get offended, and then just want to be "right". I hope people can get that being "right", even if you are right, steals your life and is a negation of real empowerment. There are a lot of really knowledgeable people on here and you don't have to insult someone when you can really help make a real difference instead. People are going to learn the hard way sometimes. And owning that is their business. We've all made the mistakes. I don't know 1 reefer who has not been impatient, cut a corner, and made an error that they knew they could avoid. Now if you are committed that you don't want to be "that guy/girl" then set-up a simple QT/hospital system. PETCO and Petsmart do $1/gallon sales several times a year or you can get a reduced priced system on craigslist or whatever. You may have to reign yourself in and hold yourself back from moving too fast but think of the long-term success that YOU want for yourself and the animals you are caring for. It's devastating to lose even one fish when you know you could have prevented it. I speak from experience. Wishing everyone success and joining you in your love for the hobby.

 

[BigBlueTang]

Good thoughts, but the one thing I disagree with is QT is not 100% successful. If you QT everything wet and treat for things, and do it right, you will not have parasites or anything harmful in your tank.


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[Mishri]

One thing that is funny is the only time I have had ich was when I QT'd my fish.. wiped out the ich with CP.. then later re-introduced it almost 2 years later with contaminated water.. It does seem some people have luck with high quality live/fresh foods being enough to keep the fish's immune system strong enough to fight it and it's always present around them.. so the immune system is always up...

But, a lot of people have also had success with full precautionary QT setups..

 

[desjardinii]

I'm starting to believe a recent shocking loss of fish was not from an Ich outbreak but due to introducing Velvet via NSW I purchased in good faith from my LFS. I'd been lucky living with Ich in my system and not one fish lost for well over a decade but from now on all new protocols for me including no NSW and perhaps a more tranquil mix of fish. Even though I'm still in mourning I feel a little bit better with a new approach.