GARLIC POLL: Your opinions needed!!
- Thread starter ScarabRa
- Start date
greenbean36191
Premium Member
I think that's a big leap in judgment. When you review the literature you find that under certain conditions garlic has shown effects as an immune booster and has shown limited success in controlling (not curing) pathogens in fish. However, those results are highly dependent on the methodology used and just about as many studies have failed to find any notable effect. The question isn't whether garlic can kill pathogens, but whether garlic as it's used within the hobby can kill pathogens or improve health and that question is still very much up in the air.
All I've got is purely anecdotal: I had a rabbit develop an outbreak in my display. I was upset. I looked for anything---didn't find any garlic but that in my fridge. I crushed it, fed it straight, and the fish went for it---all my fish did---except, of course, the mandy. They ate raw garlic and wanted more.
Well, the ich dropped off---but the deal is---nobody else got it, the rabbit didn't get it again, went back to the lfs and got it again, but not in my tank. Never had it in my tank again. Natch, I have ich-resistant gobies and dragonet, but I also have a chromis and dartfish: no show there. Still don't have it after the move and re-setup.
So...if I see another outbreak ever, in spite of the fact I see no proof, I'll crush up another clove of garlic and hope it goes away overnight again, before pulling everybody to qt and doing what I ought to do. It may be a rabbitsfoot solution, but my fish are all alive and I have not seen ich in 2 years in spite of having a tang as a brief working guest---and that I consider is like putting a 'kick-me, Ich' sign on the tank. Definitely it's a rabbitsfoot, but one I'll try again, at least, if only to see if it duplicates.
Well, the ich dropped off---but the deal is---nobody else got it, the rabbit didn't get it again, went back to the lfs and got it again, but not in my tank. Never had it in my tank again. Natch, I have ich-resistant gobies and dragonet, but I also have a chromis and dartfish: no show there. Still don't have it after the move and re-setup.
So...if I see another outbreak ever, in spite of the fact I see no proof, I'll crush up another clove of garlic and hope it goes away overnight again, before pulling everybody to qt and doing what I ought to do. It may be a rabbitsfoot solution, but my fish are all alive and I have not seen ich in 2 years in spite of having a tang as a brief working guest---and that I consider is like putting a 'kick-me, Ich' sign on the tank. Definitely it's a rabbitsfoot, but one I'll try again, at least, if only to see if it duplicates.
jman77
New member
"I think that's a big leap in judgment. When you review the literature you find that under certain conditions garlic has shown effects as an immune booster and has shown limited success in controlling (not curing) pathogens in fish. However, those results are highly dependent on the methodology used and just about as many studies have failed to find any notable effect. The question isn't whether garlic can kill pathogens, but whether garlic as it's used within the hobby can kill pathogens or improve health and that question is still very much up in the air."
As I stated before, studies have been done, and it's proven to do what you question. The biggest problem is that allicin is highly unstable see below ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allicin
"Allicin compound obtained from garlic that has demonstrated potent antibacterial and anti-fungal properties that protect garlic from pathogens [1][2]. Allicin is also the chemical constituent primarily responsible for the hot, burning flavor of fresh garlic.[citation needed]
Allicin is not present in garlic in its natural state. When garlic is chopped or otherwise damaged, the enzyme alliinase acts on the chemical alliin converting it into allicin.[3] Alliin is an amino acid that does not build proteins. Alliinase has been demonstrated to be irreversibly deactivated below a pH of 3; as such, allicin is generally not produced in the body from consumed fresh or powdered garlic.[4][5][6] In light of this, Allicin is considered to be of very limited value as an oral antibiotic due to poor bioavailability.[7]
Allicin is not a very stable compound. It degrades slowly upon standing and is rapidly destroyed by cooking. Allicin can be used for some medicinal purposes: it helps fighting arteriosclerosis, it has the ability to dissolve fats and it can also be used as an antioxidant to some extent.[8][9] Other studies have shown a strong oxidative effect in the gut that can damage intestinal cells [10],[11] Vasodilative effect of garlic in physiological oxygen levels is possibly caused by catabolism of its allicin-like polysulfides to hydrogen sulfide, a reaction which could depend on reduction mediated by glutathione.[12]"
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1782446
"Allicin, a major ingredient of fresh garlic extract that is produced during the crushing of garlic cloves, exerts various beneficial biological effects, including a broad spectrum of antimicrobial activity, antihyperlipidaemic and antihypertensive effects."
http://www.3dchem.com/molecules.asp?ID=156
"Being a strongly oxidising compound, it protects garlic from attack by bacteria and insects by disabling the enzymes that are found in the substrate necessary for infections to occur,"
http://www.foodengineeringmag.com/CDA/Archives/f0208f4ab52f8010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____
"Published articles had suggested that simply throwing cloves of garlic into the pond was helpful in promoting healthy stocks, and preliminary results from the application of allicin to fish bacteria in the lab are encouraging."
"#
http://www.fao.org/docrep/field/003/AC233E/AC233E06.htm
"Prevention with medicated feeds: during epidemic season of Grass carp enteritis, medicated feed is more helpful. Use 1â€"œ2 kg garlic per 100 kg of fish once a day for six consecutive days. Pulp and blend the garlic with fish feeds for feeding, preventive result would be better if 40g of table salt is added for every 5kg of food. For adult fish, mix the pulped garlic with some adhesive, and spread onto tender grass which can be applied after it is dry, or medicated feed may be given in pellet form."
http://www.geocities.com/shtinkythefish/diseases/garlic.htm
" Garlic has long been thought to ward off evils like vampires, disease, ect. While mostly unfounded, Garlic has many antibacterial and anti-parasitic properties, mostly derivative of its high sulfur content. It can be fed to fish nearly all fish, tropical and coldwater, freshwater, marine, and salt, to cure many parasitic infections, internal external. Internal parasites are inherently hard to treat, because of the difficulty in getting medicines into the intestines, where they occur. "
I'm suprised you being a marine bio , don't know about this.... and yea, you google skills are weak grasshopper....lol Again guys, the thing to remember is that is has to be freshly crushed or it's pretty much useless for what we are using it for.
As I stated before, studies have been done, and it's proven to do what you question. The biggest problem is that allicin is highly unstable see below ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allicin
"Allicin compound obtained from garlic that has demonstrated potent antibacterial and anti-fungal properties that protect garlic from pathogens [1][2]. Allicin is also the chemical constituent primarily responsible for the hot, burning flavor of fresh garlic.[citation needed]
Allicin is not present in garlic in its natural state. When garlic is chopped or otherwise damaged, the enzyme alliinase acts on the chemical alliin converting it into allicin.[3] Alliin is an amino acid that does not build proteins. Alliinase has been demonstrated to be irreversibly deactivated below a pH of 3; as such, allicin is generally not produced in the body from consumed fresh or powdered garlic.[4][5][6] In light of this, Allicin is considered to be of very limited value as an oral antibiotic due to poor bioavailability.[7]
Allicin is not a very stable compound. It degrades slowly upon standing and is rapidly destroyed by cooking. Allicin can be used for some medicinal purposes: it helps fighting arteriosclerosis, it has the ability to dissolve fats and it can also be used as an antioxidant to some extent.[8][9] Other studies have shown a strong oxidative effect in the gut that can damage intestinal cells [10],[11] Vasodilative effect of garlic in physiological oxygen levels is possibly caused by catabolism of its allicin-like polysulfides to hydrogen sulfide, a reaction which could depend on reduction mediated by glutathione.[12]"
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1782446
"Allicin, a major ingredient of fresh garlic extract that is produced during the crushing of garlic cloves, exerts various beneficial biological effects, including a broad spectrum of antimicrobial activity, antihyperlipidaemic and antihypertensive effects."
http://www.3dchem.com/molecules.asp?ID=156
"Being a strongly oxidising compound, it protects garlic from attack by bacteria and insects by disabling the enzymes that are found in the substrate necessary for infections to occur,"
http://www.foodengineeringmag.com/CDA/Archives/f0208f4ab52f8010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____
"Published articles had suggested that simply throwing cloves of garlic into the pond was helpful in promoting healthy stocks, and preliminary results from the application of allicin to fish bacteria in the lab are encouraging."
"#
http://www.fao.org/docrep/field/003/AC233E/AC233E06.htm
"Prevention with medicated feeds: during epidemic season of Grass carp enteritis, medicated feed is more helpful. Use 1â€"œ2 kg garlic per 100 kg of fish once a day for six consecutive days. Pulp and blend the garlic with fish feeds for feeding, preventive result would be better if 40g of table salt is added for every 5kg of food. For adult fish, mix the pulped garlic with some adhesive, and spread onto tender grass which can be applied after it is dry, or medicated feed may be given in pellet form."
http://www.geocities.com/shtinkythefish/diseases/garlic.htm
" Garlic has long been thought to ward off evils like vampires, disease, ect. While mostly unfounded, Garlic has many antibacterial and anti-parasitic properties, mostly derivative of its high sulfur content. It can be fed to fish nearly all fish, tropical and coldwater, freshwater, marine, and salt, to cure many parasitic infections, internal external. Internal parasites are inherently hard to treat, because of the difficulty in getting medicines into the intestines, where they occur. "
I'm suprised you being a marine bio , don't know about this.... and yea, you google skills are weak grasshopper....lol Again guys, the thing to remember is that is has to be freshly crushed or it's pretty much useless for what we are using it for.
Last edited:
greenbean36191
Premium Member
I know about the claims you've posted so far. Very little of it has anything to do with the efficacy of garlic for treating marine fish parasites. It's yet to be shown that fish get a therapeutically beneficial dose of garlic/ allicin from feeding unconcentrated garlic extract. It also hasn't been shown how easily that allicin makes it into the fish's system after it's been injested. Furthermore the effect of the allicin on the fish parasites once it makes it into the fish's system is virtually unknown.
Determining that refined allicin kills bacteria in a petri dish is a long way from proving that feeding garlic to fish or soaking their food in the juice will cure them from of any disease.
jman77
New member
The only quotes that I posted that talk about refined Allicin is this one
http://www.foodengineeringmag.com/C...000f932a8c0____
"Published articles had suggested that simply throwing cloves of garlic into the pond was helpful in promoting healthy stocks, and preliminary results from the application of allicin to fish bacteria in the lab are encouraging."
All the rest are about regular Garlic being used.
Here is another one.... btw they are talking about Jack Wattley...
http://www.animalcomp.com/archives/fish/DiscusExpert.html
"To treat intestinal worms in discus, Wattley uses garlic. He experimented with garlic oils and powders from a health food store before determining that only fresh, pureed garlic works. He advocates putting it on the discus’ food. He uses almost a 50/50 ratio of garlic to food."
http://www.foodengineeringmag.com/C...000f932a8c0____
"Published articles had suggested that simply throwing cloves of garlic into the pond was helpful in promoting healthy stocks, and preliminary results from the application of allicin to fish bacteria in the lab are encouraging."
All the rest are about regular Garlic being used.
Here is another one.... btw they are talking about Jack Wattley...
http://www.animalcomp.com/archives/fish/DiscusExpert.html
"To treat intestinal worms in discus, Wattley uses garlic. He experimented with garlic oils and powders from a health food store before determining that only fresh, pureed garlic works. He advocates putting it on the discus’ food. He uses almost a 50/50 ratio of garlic to food."
greenbean36191
Premium Member
The sources in the wikipedia article and the next two articles cited are based on in vitro work using either refined allicin or various preparations of garlic extract standardized for allicin. Not even the antimicrobial effect has been demonstrated when the garlic is administered orally in vivo. In fact, it can't even be detected in the blood when it's administered orally.
The rest of the quotes are anecdotal or vague mentions of what someone else claimed. We already have plenty of anecdotal evidence suggesting that garlic is an appetite stimulant, parasite treatment, or immune booster. The problem is that anecdote is notoriously unreliable. It's especially unreliable in the case of ich treatments because the parasite naturally drops off and often doesn't reinfect at visible levels again, even without treatment. There's lots of anecdotal evidence that shark cartilage prevents or treats cancer too- something that controlled tests just don't support.
We don't have any controlled tests confirming that feeding garlic in vivo actually confers the benefits people claim or that are seen in vitro. In fact we have evidence that the effects people see don't occur by the suggested mechanism. That certainly doesn't mean that garlic doesn't work, but it's far from a proven cure. A lot more work needs to be done.
The rest of the quotes are anecdotal or vague mentions of what someone else claimed. We already have plenty of anecdotal evidence suggesting that garlic is an appetite stimulant, parasite treatment, or immune booster. The problem is that anecdote is notoriously unreliable. It's especially unreliable in the case of ich treatments because the parasite naturally drops off and often doesn't reinfect at visible levels again, even without treatment. There's lots of anecdotal evidence that shark cartilage prevents or treats cancer too- something that controlled tests just don't support.
We don't have any controlled tests confirming that feeding garlic in vivo actually confers the benefits people claim or that are seen in vitro. In fact we have evidence that the effects people see don't occur by the suggested mechanism. That certainly doesn't mean that garlic doesn't work, but it's far from a proven cure. A lot more work needs to be done.
Sponges don't typically do well in reef tanks... Occasionally they may survive, but not often. Also, IMO the nicer they are, the less likely they are to survive.
In my first fish tank, my fish were acting weird and had what looked like little white spots (ich). I fed them garlic at first and they survived. I stopped feeding them garlic and they still survived. My second tank had the same problem, but I didn't feed them garlic and they survived.
I'm also quite skeptical that hobbyists are actually capable of diagnosis ich in the early stages...
Now I think the white spots might have been sand or bristleworm spikes and the fish just weird.
I think it's fairly well established that Allicin has SOME immune-stimulating effects in mice and rats.... for whatever that's worth. Any link to fish and ich however, is as greenbean36191 suggested, purely anecdotal. Doesn't mean it's not true, just means its a guess.
In my first fish tank, my fish were acting weird and had what looked like little white spots (ich). I fed them garlic at first and they survived. I stopped feeding them garlic and they still survived. My second tank had the same problem, but I didn't feed them garlic and they survived.
I'm also quite skeptical that hobbyists are actually capable of diagnosis ich in the early stages...
Now I think the white spots might have been sand or bristleworm spikes and the fish just weird.
I think it's fairly well established that Allicin has SOME immune-stimulating effects in mice and rats.... for whatever that's worth. Any link to fish and ich however, is as greenbean36191 suggested, purely anecdotal. Doesn't mean it's not true, just means its a guess.
tcwayne
OLDGUY-OG
In my experience, again in my experience. I haven't been doing this for very long but I got ick in my 90 I think around april or may. It was a new tank and I had recently moved everything from my 46. Well I lost some fish and it may have been from my novice skills of upgrading to a bigger tank. Determined to not lose anymore fish, I decided to put the 46 together and QT the fish that I had and that is where they stayed for two months while the 90 stood fallow. No sign of ick anywhere so I put everything back in the 90 and at the time I had only 4 fish no coral. All signs had been good for a few months and I felt it was time to replace a fish that my wife truly loved that we lost, a blue hippo tang. I found a fat one from a guy who was doing a tank teardown and she was very happy and healthy. I got the fish in my tank, after QT in my little 10gal. she seemed fine, eating great and within a couple of days BOOM just like that there is spots on the hippo. I couldn't believe it, so I put ol hippo back in QT with treatment. Got her all better and no signs of ick, not on her in the QT or on anyone in the 90. So I put her back in and of course in a couple of days she had spots. C'MON MAN! Obviously I needed a second opinion of sorts. You guessed it, GARLIC! Everyone in the tank goes after that stuff like they haven't eaten in a month. I see an occasional spot here and there but it immediately goes away and all I do is smash garlic in some seaweed and what a relief!
impur
New member
I had ich spring up in my tank about 6 months ago. I have 5 fish in my 75gal and 3 of them were showing signs of ich. I started using my garlic press and smashing up a half clove of garlic each night i fed. I would mash up the garlic and then put it in a small cup with the thawed frozen foods i use. I tried to get all the juice from the garlic and as much of the actual clove. I'd stir this and let it sit for about 5 min then feed, tossing in the garlic as well. I did this for about 2 months. The ich never got worse and eventually went away. It has not come back to this point.
I can't say for certain if it was the garlic, or just me paying closer attention to detail and taking better care of the tank.
I'd like to see something proven regarding garlic, thats for sure.
I can't say for certain if it was the garlic, or just me paying closer attention to detail and taking better care of the tank.
I'd like to see something proven regarding garlic, thats for sure.
