The sculpin
New member
I familiar with it (never done it). But I need to treat 10 fish and it seems it would be a lot of stress on them. I only have one fish with symptoms but I need to treat all ten correct?
Ginger works with ich... Every time I use it
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The sculpin
New member
Or.... Should I just leave them alone and wait and see?
The sculpin
New member
It has been 3 weeks since symptoms showed
Allmost
New member
no-one can make that decision for you.
you either want to get the parasite out, or you choose to live with it.
if live with it, then keep water top notch[water changes] and feed the fish ALOT.
if you want to get the parasite out, then TT.
set up 2 tanks, on day 3, use a plastic container [rubbermaid ? ] to transfer fish over. do this early in the morning when u get up, dont turn the light on ... most of your fish wont even know they were trnasfered. transfer as LITTLE water as possible. Nets are alot more stressful on fish than containers.
make sure to empty, wash, and DRY the other tank while the fish are in the other one.
you should do this for all fish.
keep an eye on ammonia and stock up on ammonia removers.
you either want to get the parasite out, or you choose to live with it.
if live with it, then keep water top notch[water changes] and feed the fish ALOT.
if you want to get the parasite out, then TT.
set up 2 tanks, on day 3, use a plastic container [rubbermaid ? ] to transfer fish over. do this early in the morning when u get up, dont turn the light on ... most of your fish wont even know they were trnasfered. transfer as LITTLE water as possible. Nets are alot more stressful on fish than containers.
make sure to empty, wash, and DRY the other tank while the fish are in the other one.
you should do this for all fish.
keep an eye on ammonia and stock up on ammonia removers.
msmith619
New member
I had a post several weeks back about ich in my 120 gallon DT. I do not have a QT and had tried garlic to no effect. I treat Protozoan infections in Humans with Metronidazole and so, I went with the route documented in the above quote.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2335880
Progress report:
So, after three weeks of a Blue Hippo being completely covered in ich in my DT and not having a QT, I tried a different (desperate) route.
I treated 5 days with Fishkeeper additive for Marine and Reef (made by Tropical Science), Seachem Metronidazole and Seachem Focus (Nitrofurantoin) along with Garlic Guard in their food at every feeding. I feed 3-5 times a day and added to both frozen and flake food. No one turned their nosed up at the medicated food.
The ich spots dissapperared 2 days into treatment. I used the Fish Keeper additive for 5 days and the Metronidazole and Focus for a total of 10 days.
This is a full reef tank (see the earlier post for pictures) with SPS, LPS, Gorgonians, and a LTA. There have been NO ILL EFFECTS to any of the reef inhabitants including my snails, hermit crabs and many ornamental shrimp.
It has now been 40+ days since completion of that therapy. There is no sign of ich. The tang is fatter and even more active than before. All the fish are still healthy and I did not have to treat the DT. I stopped the Metronidazole and Focus after 10 days. There has been no recurrence of spots after 3 solid weeks of heavy ich infestation of my Blue Tang.
I tested the tank by adding a One-spot Foxface 2 weeks ago. No recurrence of the ich and no signs of ich on the new fish.
I know this is not the recommended course of action but, it was just about my only recourse and, in this case, it worked well. The ich was constant and the poor tang was covered from head to tail every day with hundreds of white spots, never a day without spots for 3 weeks. Two days into this treatment he lost all of the spots. Ich is a protozoan and we use Metronidazole on humans to treat protozoan infections. It just made sense to try it in the food and it seems to be working.
I would not hesitate to use this method again of recommend to others to try even in a full reef tank.
blanden.adam
Team RC
Indeed, but the protozoan infections you use metronidazole for in humans are universally anaerobic. It's a requirement of it's mechanism of action (at least it's known mechanism via the pyruvate:ferredoxin oxidoreductase system). To my knowledge, ich is not an anaerobe, but I suppose stranger things have happened. Particularly considering the unknowns about its mechanism of action in facilitative anaerobes.
I don't know enough about fish physiology or ich metabolism to comment on the nitrofuratoin, but I do know that in humans the only area it reaches therepeutic concentration is in the urinary tract as it becomes concentrated in the urine. So dosing would be a concern.
IMO, there are just to many unknowns to make a recommendation to others regarding the use of such drugs in ich treatment when demonstrated alternatives exist.
Khemul
New member
The ich debate is basically one of religion. All of the methods rely on the observer to judge whether the parasite has been defeated. And since we can't see the parasite itself, they are all essentially a success. All of them require faith that the method works.
I can stress my fish out and not see an outbreak. Does it mean my lack of QT and penchant for throwing random junk right out of the ocean (including the polluted water itself) into the tank killed it? Probably not. But my fish are "ich-free". At least to the same degree as the people using copper/hypo/transfer. They don't see an outbreak so they are "ich-free".
Admittedly, I doubt garlic/ginger work. Hypo is questionable. Copper and tank transfer have no reason not to work, so we can probably assume they work. But all methods require the same faith. We don't see ich, so the parasite is defeated. And those with faith in one method discount the other method for various reasons that also entirely count on faith (because I can't prove that a tank using ginger has ich, other then assuming that I know it will because I don't believe ginger works...). Since religions are notoriously territorial and not known for being tolerant of other views. And thus we get this type of debate.
It is an interesting bug. How one fish can be infected in a tank full of "healthy" fish. Even long-term. Personally, I've found the best method for controlling/eliminating ich is to not stress and just stick to whatever method most realistic. For me it is much like PaulB's method of simply keeping the fish healthy. For other it may be copper, or hypo, or ginger. Whatever works, stick to it. Because the problems come when things change quickly. This leads to meddling, which increases stress, which feeds back into the cycle and ends in disaster. Slow and steady and just stick to whatever works for you. Whatever it may be. Copper, hypo, ginger, garlic, dancing naked around the tank while waving chicken bones and chanting prayers to the anti-parasite gods (I'm sure there are some down towards the bottom of the pantheons...)... whatever works.
I can stress my fish out and not see an outbreak. Does it mean my lack of QT and penchant for throwing random junk right out of the ocean (including the polluted water itself) into the tank killed it? Probably not. But my fish are "ich-free". At least to the same degree as the people using copper/hypo/transfer. They don't see an outbreak so they are "ich-free".
Admittedly, I doubt garlic/ginger work. Hypo is questionable. Copper and tank transfer have no reason not to work, so we can probably assume they work. But all methods require the same faith. We don't see ich, so the parasite is defeated. And those with faith in one method discount the other method for various reasons that also entirely count on faith (because I can't prove that a tank using ginger has ich, other then assuming that I know it will because I don't believe ginger works...). Since religions are notoriously territorial and not known for being tolerant of other views. And thus we get this type of debate.
It is an interesting bug. How one fish can be infected in a tank full of "healthy" fish. Even long-term. Personally, I've found the best method for controlling/eliminating ich is to not stress and just stick to whatever method most realistic. For me it is much like PaulB's method of simply keeping the fish healthy. For other it may be copper, or hypo, or ginger. Whatever works, stick to it. Because the problems come when things change quickly. This leads to meddling, which increases stress, which feeds back into the cycle and ends in disaster. Slow and steady and just stick to whatever works for you. Whatever it may be. Copper, hypo, ginger, garlic, dancing naked around the tank while waving chicken bones and chanting prayers to the anti-parasite gods (I'm sure there are some down towards the bottom of the pantheons...)... whatever works.
reeferstace
I'm a little people
I'm sorry but your religion analogy doesn't work here. There are scientific studies that support copper treatment and question the effectiveness of hyposalinity. Tank transfer works because it breaks the lifecycle of Cryptocaryon. Garlic and ginger have no scientific merit. Every post on this website in support of garlic and ginger are anecdotal only.
blanden.adam
Team RC
Indeed. And yes we can see the ich parasite -- in a lab where we have microscopes and trained personnel to do gill biopsies, cyst biopsies, water sampling etc. That copper works is not just faith, that the ich life-cycle involves a 3-7 day period living on the fish before dropping off is not an assumption based on a rudimentary look. These are facts. We know they are facts because multiple people with appropriate training and equipment have studied this parasite and documented these things. I agree that all of our knowledge is based on observation, but not all observation is created equal.
Khemul
New member
I didn't say that copper working was faith. Yes, it works. I even said that there was no reason copper and tank transfer wouldn't work, so we can assume they work.
But the fact that it worked in your tank is faith. Until you've thoroughly examined every single fish in the tank, multiple times, with a microscope, you are going on faith that you ran the treatment correctly. You are going on faith that the treatment worked.
Sure, your method is much more proven. Well, actually, the only methods really proven to work. But your judgement for whether it worked is no different then the unproven methods. You are still relying on the fact that you don't visually see ich in the tank.
Which is why there are cases of people using copper and still getting ich in their tank. Because while copper and tank transfer are technically 100% effective, they are only as good as the person administering the treatment.
But the fact that it worked in your tank is faith. Until you've thoroughly examined every single fish in the tank, multiple times, with a microscope, you are going on faith that you ran the treatment correctly. You are going on faith that the treatment worked.
Sure, your method is much more proven. Well, actually, the only methods really proven to work. But your judgement for whether it worked is no different then the unproven methods. You are still relying on the fact that you don't visually see ich in the tank.
Which is why there are cases of people using copper and still getting ich in their tank. Because while copper and tank transfer are technically 100% effective, they are only as good as the person administering the treatment.
ReefKeeper64
Wanna be a reefkeeper
Well stated and to the point. Thanks
DopeCantWin
Active member
There is actually a very easy test to see whether all fish were cured of Ich. Throw an Achilles in there.
blanden.adam
Team RC
Except here's the thing, if your physician gives you an antibiotic and the infection you had goes away, it's a reasonable conclusion that the antibiotic worked. If instead the physician gives you ice cream and the infection goes away, it is not a reasonable conclusion that the ice cream worked.
In that particular case is it conclusive that the antibiotic worked? Not at all, but because of all of the research done on antibiotics, it is a reasonable recommendation to use them for infections. If you were to go around recommending ice cream for infections because your infection went away after you ate it, and in your estimation it therefore worked, it would be irresponsible because they don't actually work. Just in your corner case it looked like they did.
Antibiotics are also an apt analogy because people don't finish prescriptions as they should, and this fosters resistance. In the same way, you should use copper as directed. Neither copper nor tank transfer are 100% effective. Nothing is. But by their appropriate application you can greatly minimize the risk of infecting your tank. Naked dancing and chicken bones cannot claim the same merit.
In that particular case is it conclusive that the antibiotic worked? Not at all, but because of all of the research done on antibiotics, it is a reasonable recommendation to use them for infections. If you were to go around recommending ice cream for infections because your infection went away after you ate it, and in your estimation it therefore worked, it would be irresponsible because they don't actually work. Just in your corner case it looked like they did.
Antibiotics are also an apt analogy because people don't finish prescriptions as they should, and this fosters resistance. In the same way, you should use copper as directed. Neither copper nor tank transfer are 100% effective. Nothing is. But by their appropriate application you can greatly minimize the risk of infecting your tank. Naked dancing and chicken bones cannot claim the same merit.
Khemul
New member
It's been a time honored tradition in other fields for thousands of years. No reason it shouldn't be equally effective here. :crazy1:
But yes. I do agree that people shouldn't go around suggesting crazy methods just because it appeared to work. But then, it'd probably have a disastrous effect on quite a few industries. Retail especially... :beer:
The ich debate is basically one of religion.
You are going on faith that the treatment worked.
they are only as good as the person administering the treatment.
It's still a matter of science not religion.;more existential than metaphysical I save my faith for deeper more ethereal matters beyond my comprehension.
I rely on my own observations but much more than that . There are methods that have been proven via scientific methods that are easily replicated with a little discipline and atention to detail.
You are going on faith that the treatment worked.
they are only as good as the person administering the treatment.
It's still a matter of science not religion.;more existential than metaphysical I save my faith for deeper more ethereal matters beyond my comprehension.
I rely on my own observations but much more than that . There are methods that have been proven via scientific methods that are easily replicated with a little discipline and atention to detail.
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ReefKeeper64
Wanna be a reefkeeper
LOL - or a Powder Blue Tang!
The whole idea that ginger can CURE ich seems weak. Perhaps it has some mild benefit beyond placebo, maybe not. If it was effective, there would be plenty of studies by the fish industry on the topic already. This is not a new problem by any means and countless studies have been done to try and find a cure.
Msmith
Thank you for sharing your experience. Anecdoteswith good detail are helpful.
Adam is correct, Giradia lamblia, the falgellate protozoan which infects the intestinal tract in humans and is treated with metronidazole is an anaerobe . So is trichomonas which infects the urogenitial tract. The ameba and bacteria it works on are also anaerobes.
Crytocaryon irritans functions in relatively high oxygen environments. Even when when it embeds in the epithelium in the fish's gills or other tissue for a few days to feed ,I would expect oxygen to diffuse into those areas. Would you?
So, I don't understand how it would work against cryto caryon irritans absent anaerobic acitvity.
Do you have a hypothesis or plausible explanation for how and where it could or would attack the cryptocarion parasite?
Without that rationale , I think it's temerarious to recommended it's use to others based on one set of personal observations wherein the observed improvements in the fish could easily be a placebo effect related to the life cylce of the parasite , the level of temporary acquried immunity in the fish to the strain of parasite in the tank or some other variable/s.
Further, not even Seachem claims any effect for it's metronidazole product beyond it's assumed role as an anitbiotc presumably( a big presumption btw) one which can thwart secondary bacterial infections often associated with ich. They tout the Garlic Guard for parasite control in the snippet previusly quoted, not the metronidazole. However, on the product label they describe Garlic Guard merely as " a garlic scented odor and flavor enhancer".
As for reef safe, they don't recommend it but note they tried it in their tanks without ill effect. Huh?
I would not dose it or any other antibiotic to my reef tanks without a lot more. Your experience with it does help some in that regard but I still think it's risky. Are you aware of others who have reported using it used it for ich in reef tanks? If so seeng those anecdotal reports might be helpful. Who knows it might be useful against ich but I just don't see how at this point.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Anecdoteswith good detail are helpful.
Adam is correct, Giradia lamblia, the falgellate protozoan which infects the intestinal tract in humans and is treated with metronidazole is an anaerobe . So is trichomonas which infects the urogenitial tract. The ameba and bacteria it works on are also anaerobes.
Crytocaryon irritans functions in relatively high oxygen environments. Even when when it embeds in the epithelium in the fish's gills or other tissue for a few days to feed ,I would expect oxygen to diffuse into those areas. Would you?
So, I don't understand how it would work against cryto caryon irritans absent anaerobic acitvity.
Do you have a hypothesis or plausible explanation for how and where it could or would attack the cryptocarion parasite?
Without that rationale , I think it's temerarious to recommended it's use to others based on one set of personal observations wherein the observed improvements in the fish could easily be a placebo effect related to the life cylce of the parasite , the level of temporary acquried immunity in the fish to the strain of parasite in the tank or some other variable/s.
Further, not even Seachem claims any effect for it's metronidazole product beyond it's assumed role as an anitbiotc presumably( a big presumption btw) one which can thwart secondary bacterial infections often associated with ich. They tout the Garlic Guard for parasite control in the snippet previusly quoted, not the metronidazole. However, on the product label they describe Garlic Guard merely as " a garlic scented odor and flavor enhancer".
As for reef safe, they don't recommend it but note they tried it in their tanks without ill effect. Huh?
I would not dose it or any other antibiotic to my reef tanks without a lot more. Your experience with it does help some in that regard but I still think it's risky. Are you aware of others who have reported using it used it for ich in reef tanks? If so seeng those anecdotal reports might be helpful. Who knows it might be useful against ich but I just don't see how at this point.
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Adam,
Setting aside my concerns about reef safe for the moment , the potential for metronidazole is interesting for qt tank treatments . I wasn't able to find anything defining cryptocryon irritans as aerobic or anaerobic.
While it's clear the free swimming phases are in oxic water, the encysting could provide hypoxic or anoxic areas for tomites to grow.
Perhaps the acutal paarsitic phase embedded in the epithilium acts anaerobiclly. The med is described as having good tissue penetration but I don't know if those pockets in the epitheium the parisite burows into to feed are hypoxic or not.
What do you think?
Setting aside my concerns about reef safe for the moment , the potential for metronidazole is interesting for qt tank treatments . I wasn't able to find anything defining cryptocryon irritans as aerobic or anaerobic.
While it's clear the free swimming phases are in oxic water, the encysting could provide hypoxic or anoxic areas for tomites to grow.
Perhaps the acutal paarsitic phase embedded in the epithilium acts anaerobiclly. The med is described as having good tissue penetration but I don't know if those pockets in the epitheium the parisite burows into to feed are hypoxic or not.
What do you think?
blanden.adam
Team RC
It's certainly possible, and I wouldn't be particularly surprised as anaerobic bacteria often form abscesses, which to a first approximation seem like similar structures. On the other hand, the tomonts are external and have ample contact with oxygenated water, and the trophonts are often on the respiratory apparatus, so it's tough to make that kind of prediction. I also could not find a definition of ich as anaerobic or aerobic, or if that changed throughout its life cycle :/ A microbiologist may be a useful addition to this conversation. (maybe this merits a new thread?)
If it did get the tomonts (or better yet the trophonts) that would be really cool though. It would at least be a tool in the toolbox to get at a stage that we formerly haven't been able to kill, and it might bring us one step closer to a reef safe cure. Like I said before though, at this time I think it's best to keep our "standard of care" recommendation as there are many unknowns.
goldmaniac
New member
Everyone keeps going around and around on Ich treatments. In my 14 years with reef tanks, I've had a few ich outbreaks, mostly in my first 2-3 years. No outbreaks in the past 5 years, including a house move 3 years ago. And I KNOW that there is Ich present in the tank. So with that history of success, please consider this is my line of thinking:
No, there is no proof that garlic (or ginger) cures ich
When i DO see a fish with what looks like ich, I take a garlic press and mince 2-3 cloves of raw garlic straight into the (120 gallon) tank. Fish, especially tangs, eat some of it. Then I mince an additional single, fat clove of garlic into the tank daily.
I do nothing else. no Copper, no QT, nothing else.
I consider garlic as nothing more than a glorified type of bug spray. Horses are fed garlic to keep biting flies away, because it stinks and probably tastes bad. I have the OPINION that minced raw garlic (that the fish will eat) somehow discourages the Ich parasite from taking over the fish's system.
This works for me.
How does it work for me? Well, the fish usually (80-90% of the time) recover in a few days. I usually know when it isn't going to work because the biggest factor I've noticed with Ich recovery is the presence of a stressor, usually a resident dominant fish picking on a new arrival. For example, I keep multiple tangs, and they will sometimes REALLY not like tang newcomers. The newcomer will sometimes get Ich due to this relentless stressor. If the situation doesn't change, then the new fish is a goner if I don't remove it. It's all about observation.
I don't copper. it's a reef tank, so I'd have to remove and QT the new fish to start a copper regimen.
If i can't catch the fish quickly, then it's healthy enough to run & hide, and strong enough to fight the ich outbreak. If I chase it down, disrupting the tank, I feel that this is an even BIGGER stressor, further hurting the fish.
I don't QT for Ich in general. I've found that it's not beneficial. I even took a 10-month period to try to go completely ich-free. It's futile.
Yes, the Ich parasite is in my 120 gallon tank's water. Keep healthy fish and they won't succumb to Ich.
Even if raw garlic doesn't help, by doing NOTHING ELSE, the fish usually recover.
I am a proponent of NOT adding Cu and NOT QT'ing a sick fish from the display tank. I have found that more fish die when I QT a fish and give it a copper treatment than when I LEAVE THE TANK SYSTEM ALONE.
that's my experience.
No, there is no proof that garlic (or ginger) cures ich
When i DO see a fish with what looks like ich, I take a garlic press and mince 2-3 cloves of raw garlic straight into the (120 gallon) tank. Fish, especially tangs, eat some of it. Then I mince an additional single, fat clove of garlic into the tank daily.
I do nothing else. no Copper, no QT, nothing else.
I consider garlic as nothing more than a glorified type of bug spray. Horses are fed garlic to keep biting flies away, because it stinks and probably tastes bad. I have the OPINION that minced raw garlic (that the fish will eat) somehow discourages the Ich parasite from taking over the fish's system.
This works for me.
How does it work for me? Well, the fish usually (80-90% of the time) recover in a few days. I usually know when it isn't going to work because the biggest factor I've noticed with Ich recovery is the presence of a stressor, usually a resident dominant fish picking on a new arrival. For example, I keep multiple tangs, and they will sometimes REALLY not like tang newcomers. The newcomer will sometimes get Ich due to this relentless stressor. If the situation doesn't change, then the new fish is a goner if I don't remove it. It's all about observation.
I don't copper. it's a reef tank, so I'd have to remove and QT the new fish to start a copper regimen.
If i can't catch the fish quickly, then it's healthy enough to run & hide, and strong enough to fight the ich outbreak. If I chase it down, disrupting the tank, I feel that this is an even BIGGER stressor, further hurting the fish.
I don't QT for Ich in general. I've found that it's not beneficial. I even took a 10-month period to try to go completely ich-free. It's futile.
Yes, the Ich parasite is in my 120 gallon tank's water. Keep healthy fish and they won't succumb to Ich.
Even if raw garlic doesn't help, by doing NOTHING ELSE, the fish usually recover.
I am a proponent of NOT adding Cu and NOT QT'ing a sick fish from the display tank. I have found that more fish die when I QT a fish and give it a copper treatment than when I LEAVE THE TANK SYSTEM ALONE.
that's my experience.
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