Ginger works with ich... Every time I use it

[FlyPenFly]

i'm not saying you did the copper treatment wrong or anything, but ich can't come back if completly removed from the fish and tank as it is a parasite. it has to be introduced again.

I don't think anyone has done an extensive study on the deeper parts of a fish where the parasite can hang out even in copper treated tanks. My hypothesis is that once infected, the parasite can live dormant deep inside a fish much like the Herpes virus in humans. It can flare up again in some cases when conditions become opportune.

 

[blanden.adam]

I don't think anyone has done an extensive study on the deeper parts of a fish where the parasite can hang out even in copper treated tanks. My hypothesis is that once infected, the parasite can live dormant deep inside a fish much like the Herpes virus in humans. It can flare up again in some cases when conditions become opportune.

Herpes virus is a DNA virus that can migrate intracellularly from nerve axons to cell bodies in dorsal root or autonomic ganglia where it lies dormant. It lives and reproduces intracellularly as a normal phase of its life cycle. Crytocaryon irritans is a large, multi-cellular ectoparasite that never lives intracellularly and cannot migrate and lie dormant intracellularly. Comparing it with the dormancy of Herpes is a bit of a stretch.

 

[FlyPenFly]

I'm not saying they're the same, I was just drawing a parallel between how the
Mechanism might work.

 

[blanden.adam]

I know you are, but what I'm saying is you can't draw a parallel because of how different the organisms are. They are not even in the same ballpark, so how could they have the same mechanism?

 

[vitz]

because it's not a hypothesis-it's pure unfounded conjecture based on cursory visual anecdote and a COMPLETE ignorance of ich basics. basics

once again-people keep flying-just simply flying, into the face of known facts, even when links are posted mid thread, in case folks can't find a sticky at the forum head....

if copper is maintained at above .14ppm free copper ion, ich CANNOT SURVIVE IF ALL CYSTS HATCH INTO THAT WATER. PERIOD. END OF STORY. PROVEN SCIENTIFIC FACT. NO 'DEEP HIDING PLACES' in the fish's body, or elsewhere, or any other kind of 'bubbeh meises' ('old wives tales').

copper protocol usually isn't followed properly-that means test the copper level daily and NEVER letting it drop below .14 (or .16, or .18)....not for even a few hrs. NEVER.EVER.

and it needs to be done for more than 8 wks-you need to do any ich protocol for the length of time of the known longest lived strain, and assume that at least one cyst hatched at the latest time possible for that strain, after inititiating a q protocol . it's THAT simple....

anything else and you prolly didn't wipe it out

there's no such thing as a copper resistant strain of ich. simply no such thing. it HAS to be 'user error'. has to be.

 

[vitz]

ich has got to be one of THE most studied aquatic organisms after 1950.

 

[vitz]

After reading the Science and life cycle I understand . I also think the immune system of the fish has improved since its been in my tank.

it's not that the immune systems 'improve', exactly-it's that the fish's health starts rising from sub par after it's gills start functioning so it can breathe easier so the immune system CAN simply function at norm, and that the infection drops to a level the immune system can fight off. the healthiest fish in aquaria can (and often do) get ick. it's a simple numbers game. w/ enough soldiers and a relentless assualt, the tiniest creature will always overwhelm a much larger sized 'foe'.

(like fleas on a bear, or russia in afghanistan,heh)

the next time conditions are right for ich reproduction, your fish will likely get it again, and the 2nd time it's more likely to kill, not less likely. (in most cases-and a boosted immune system should mean for the most part a highly reduced chance of a 2nd infection to begin with, heh).

one certainly can't make a fish's immune system 'ich', or anything proof, especially when there will come a time when the best immune system stops functioning at 100% temporarily, from some type of shock to the fish's body, (which is THE opportune moment for most baddies) nor boost it beyond it's genetically pre-determined capabilities

ich's 'programming' is very much 'in tune' w/ fish life on the reef in that it's fairly 'proximity dependent' for its infection spreading mechanism between individuals-if it wasn't distance dependent, there wouldn't BE any reef fish, heh.

yet it manages to 'catch' fish from time to time on a reef, where both distances and interfering currents, volumes of water are orders of magnitude greater than in our impossibly teeny glass boxes. how difficult does anyone think it could be for ich to easily get a hold in and wipeout even a 4k gallon tank ?

hth

 

[FlyPenFly]

I know you are, but what I'm saying is you can't draw a parallel because of how different the organisms are. They are not even in the same ballpark, so how could they have the same mechanism?

I have very little in common with a coconut crab but if you submerge both of us in water long enough, we'll both die.


In General, people talk about ich like it's religious doctrine. I'm only sharing what happened in my experience with the parasite. If you want to yell about it like I just questioned your savior, I'll just back away slowly like I would from some of the most animated people yelling in the subway for no apparent reason.

 

[blanden.adam]

I have very little in common with a coconut crab but if you submerge both of us in water long enough, we'll both die.


In General, people talk about ich like it's religious doctrine. I'm only sharing what happened in my experience with the parasite. If you want to yell about it like I just questioned your savior, I'll just back away slowly like I would from some of the most animated people yelling in the subway for no apparent reason.

Alright man, here's the thing. I have been nice to you. There is no reason for you to be so insulting.

The argument you have just made is a classic fallacy of false equivalence.

Now onto the topic of ich and your observations. Making observations is a great thing -- it means you are paying attention. BUT, in order to interpret observations properly, you have to have a baseline knowledge about the things you are observing. There is a fair amount of knowledge about this organism. Scientists with actual labs and expertise in marine biology and parasitology have determined things about how this organism operates. And unless you know what they've already discovered, it's not really reasonable to throw out wild ideas about how it might work. You see that the organism is treated with a certain set of parameters, you see it go away, you see it come back. That is an observation. Hypothesizing that it burrows deep inside the fish and is sheltered from the copper so it can come back when certain conditions are met requires a lot of assumptions, is based on anecdotal observation of a single person, and isn't in line with what is known about the organism. So it's not a very attractive hypothesis.

I'm not "yelling at you for no reason," I'm just pointing out that you're idea is pretty far fetched and not really based on much. Insulting people who hold to current ideas about how to treat ich by calling it "religious doctrine" is unfair. You are insinuating that they are closed minded, and you are by contrast open minded and therefore superior. BUT, one should be careful to not mistake being open minded with being uninformed.

 

[FlyPenFly]

Sorry, that second paragraph wasn't at all directed at you.

My opinion is simply based on that I'm not the only one who had followed accepted copper protocol but ran into the same issues. My anecdotally tested opinion is based on a study I read by an Australian researcher about how ineffective hyposalinity can be for treating ich because of how deep burrowing it really is. While it may remove visible large cysts it doesn't actually serve as a cure. In the same way, cleaning shrimp or fish are only very superficially effective.

The same paper seems to suggest that the water borne life cycle of ich can be as short as 30 minutes to a few hours. This makes me think that UV is nearly ineffectual even when run at the proper slow flow high wattage rates. Constantly run ozone seems like a more effective possible treatment although nobody seems to have studied what dosage is necessary for efficacy. In all likelihood the dosage rates will be way too high to be practical although again just my hunch.

The only way it seems to help treat ich in a reef tank with the fish in the system is to simply feed as healthy food as possible while maintaining very high water quality and reducing stress. Even with hospital tanks though, there are just too many cases of people not being successful with copper and with my own experience with copper, I don't believe it's the cure all it's claimed to be.

 

[vitz]

I have very little in common with a coconut crab but if you submerge both of us in water long enough, we'll both die.


In General, people talk about ich like it's religious doctrine. I'm only sharing what happened in my experience with the parasite. If you want to yell about it like I just questioned your savior, I'll just back away slowly like I would from some of the most animated people yelling in the subway for no apparent reason.

your arrogance is simply astounding

 

[vitz]

Sorry, that second paragraph wasn't at all directed at you.

My opinion is simply based on that I'm not the only one who had followed accepted copper protocol but ran into the same issues. My anecdotally tested opinion is based on a study I read by an Australian researcher about how ineffective hyposalinity can be for treating ich because of how deep burrowing it really is. While it may remove visible large cysts it doesn't actually serve as a cure. In the same way, cleaning shrimp or fish are only very superficially effective.

The same paper seems to suggest that the water borne life cycle of ich can be as short as 30 minutes to a few hours. This makes me think that UV is nearly ineffectual even when run at the proper slow flow high wattage rates. Constantly run ozone seems like a more effective possible treatment although nobody seems to have studied what dosage is necessary for efficacy. In all likelihood the dosage rates will be way too high to be practical although again just my hunch.

The only way it seems to help treat ich in a reef tank with the fish in the system is to simply feed as healthy food as possible while maintaining very high water quality and reducing stress. Even with hospital tanks though, there are just too many cases of people not being successful with copper and with my own experience with copper, I don't believe it's the cure all it's claimed to be.

the only way to treat ich is to actually treat it what you're talking about is but part of prevention and control. and as explained previously-doing only part won't help anyone in the 'war of numbers'.

and again-if it seems to you that a verified known method didn't work-it's user error. no need to take it personally, but it's ALWAYS user error.

anyone can keep on denying facts, won't make 'em go away-regardless of how annoyed we may feel when shown to be wrong

could you link to the paper describing the setup/method/length of treatment etc.?

 

[ahmed_iAM]

In science you correlation does not mean relation. An example of this is ice cream and drowning which both correlate together but actually have no relation. The ginger may just trigger some microorganism or have an effect on another thing in the tank which may help with the ich.

 

[munchieshow]

Well I am giving this a shot on my 25g rimless cube.. I have a domino damsel (devil) that I am using for a bit to help my tank progress a bit more as I kept loosing clownfish. I noticed that it had a few white spots last night so today I fed with a bit of garlic powder, garlic and brine shrimp.... Will keep you updated with my progress. I do not have a QT and do not want to risk my softies/cuc so I figured why not give this a shot.

My Params are perfect.. The only think that may be causing stress is my Chinese led spotlight (25w rgb) but that will be swapped out in a week.

 

[blanden.adam]

I'd recommend getting a qt. You can set one up for like 50-100 bucks. All you need is a 10 gallon, a small heater, a powerhead, and some form of biological filter. Piece of cake

 

[tmz]

The ich causes lots of stress. The light should have no effect on the fish. The garlic won't do anything for it. All the damsel is doing for your tank is providing a host so the ich can continue.

 

[Osama]

How to remedy Ich in a heavily populated large 500g tank

How to remedy Ich in a heavily populated large 500g tank

Will a UV light or ozone.. Kill the ich in a large tank where it is not possible to remove all the fish.. What options should one take if somehow ich is introduced into a large tank with large population. Is the only answer remove all the fish?? Pls advise.

 

[reeferstace]

Remove all fish and treat appropriately in a QT. It is the only way to eradicate Cryptocaryon.

 

[tmz]

A large tank with ich and corals is a very difficult problem. Catching the fish can be nearly impossible and taking the tank down may harm the corals. However, the only way to eradicate it is to leave it fishless for 72 days and treat all the fish.

Some fish may develop partial immunity if they survive the initial infestation and may go on harboring some ich for a year or two in small numbers but ich will still be in the tank and ready to breakout if even minor stress event like a few degrers in temp occurs or to attack new fish that don't have previous exposure and any degree of immunity to it.
If you choose to hope and cope with ich in the tank, it's understandable but the hard truth is not great. In that case ,good feeding low stress , top notch water parameters ,monitoring for any signs and no new fish for at least a year ;maybe two( it was two for me) are needed for a chance that the strain in your tank will expire if it relies only on asexual reproduction. If the tank is fish only you could treat it directly but I'm guessing from your avitar that it's not.

 

[Osama]

Tom thanks for the comprehensive response. It is impossible to remove all the fish. I have a wrasse that buries himself in two plus inches of sand in between 1200 lbs of rock. I followed all the precaution I know off, by keeping the fish I have in a separate tank for 4 months before moving them into the 500g. It must have been the stress of the move and fish or tank must have housed something that did not materialize until the stress of the move... I do not know. I will keep my parameters up and keep water in best condition and hope for the best. Only one (large Sohal Tang) of 8 fish have something under his skin ( a parasite) no white spots on the body So I am hoping it is not ich and hoping that a few weeks in a larger tank may help the situation.. Hope!! is what I have for now that it is not ich and that with good tank housekeeping it will be OK in a year or two.. thanks again for the expanded explanation