Ginger works with ich... Every time I use it

[blanden.adam]

I disagree that it's off topic. We aren't talking about humans, but it has everything to do with what level of evidence we use to dictate best practice. Do we rely on anecdotal reports and rumors or do we rely on science? Sure, anecdotal reports and rumors are useful for generating hypotheses for testing, but for dictating practice we rely on the strongest evidence we have available, which is most often science.

 

[JB63]

Darn, this is getting very 'complicated' ... LOL ... My 'off-topic' qualifier was intended for the LONG paragraph I wrote after my opening sentence ... It was not meant for your reply. Though, YES, I do agree that our practice should be based on science. But, let it be clear, several of the medical 'findings' were based on some grand-ma 'herbal' recipes that were studied relentlessly. Our ancestors found through trial and error what some of the remedies were, only later Scientific Medicine explained/confirmed/improved some of those remedies. A good example is the use of morphine as a pain killer, and the more 'refined' compounds that came afterwards.... but, that is all 'off topic' LOL

 

[JB63]

IMO, It would be worthwhile for me and hopefully others with large setups, if we hear from those with the expertise shown here , if they would summarize for us what is the best approach to use when a big mixed reef tank is contaminated and is full of fish and corals and over a thousand pound of rocks and hiding places, while keeping everything in DT and hoping to minimize fish losses while protecting corals and other critters..
Water salinity/ Temperature/ skimmer on or off/ UV on or off if have it // ozone on or off if have it/ carbon / GFO/ feeding frequency/ type of food/ and duration of any change of salinity etc.. anything else that you propose that can help in food or water supplement/ percent changes in water and frequency.... anything else that can possibly salvage an otherwise well established DT other than tearing it down to get the fish out... Greatly appreciate all input that would address this point and many thanks.. please write for a beginner in fish disease treatment. If medication is an answer where can I get it... THANKS

Knock on wood, I have not had an ich outbreak in a long time. I've been at this over 10+ Years so my 'methods' may be considered old school. So, I run UV continuously, in series with a canister filter (primarily as a media reactor). Worst you can do for ich is to stress the fish even more than needed. I'd try and catch the fish (at night while sleeping) and put it in a hospital tank (20L) where I administer a combination of copper, malachite green, low salinity, and another bluish solution (do not recall the name). I run that for 7-10 days with about 30% water change daily. During the early days, I noticed white spots on the tank's bottom (parasites that have fallen off the fish?) and I siphon those out during WC. I tried things like Kick-Ich but those are a waste of money IMHO.

If you cannot capture the sick fish and take it out ... Things get complicated and I simply let it be .... While making sure UV is on. Typically, and if fish has only few white spots, it usually recovers within 3-4 days.

 

[Osama]

Thanks for your input JB. Capturing the fish is next to impossible...

 

[JB63]

Sorry ... not of much help. What type of fish is it?

 

[Osama]

It is a Tang that sleep in between very tight rock formation... not good with names so here is his ID 'Paracanthurus hepatus' Blue tang for me is good enough

 

[Allmost]

Osama, get an aquamedic fish trap.

they do work.

 

[tmz]

Cheers ... and Meilleurs Voeux pour 2014.

Frohes neues Jahr an Sie

 

[JB63]

It is a Tang that sleep in between very tight rock formation... not good with names so here is his ID 'Paracanthurus hepatus' Blue tang for me is good enough

Blue tangs are notorious for Ich and ... sleeping in tight spots. If he has only few spots, let him be, and maybe watch out for aggressive tank-mates (yellow or powder blue tangs). If way too many white spots, might still be able to save him, but gotta capture him first.

Other thing about tangs in general is to use use very SLOW acclimation to salinity. If you buy one from a store that has low salinity (and copper), then bring him up to your tank's salinity over few days, typically 0.03 per day at most.

 

[Bilk]

I disagree that it's off topic. We aren't talking about humans, but it has everything to do with what level of evidence we use to dictate best practice. Do we rely on anecdotal reports and rumors or do we rely on science? Sure, anecdotal reports and rumors are useful for generating hypotheses for testing, but for dictating practice we rely on the strongest evidence we have available, which is most often science.

I wonder if your books explained how the greatest medical discovery came about? How someone irresponsibly left a contaminated petri dish out and upon returning witnessed something that he might not have had he just tossed it in the autoclave?

It was happenstance and then observation. It wasn't divine knowledge handed down by the almighty. It was an error. It wasn't even a "hey let's see what this will do" or based on any prior knowledge - well that is if you believe the official story. Me? I personally believe it was based on Westerners observing Asian remedies, as they have been using fouled, spoilt foods and their derivatives for centuries as cures, prior to the discovery of penicillin. You know? The stuff witch doctors and medicine men used and then were co-opted by the pharmaceutical industry for profit.

Know how warfarin was discovered? Rotting animal feed. Now it's the most prescribed drug on the planet. I wouldn't have any issues with it if it weren't first used to eliminated rodents Wonder who was the first to want to try that?

Heck I wonder who was the first reef head that thought dumping Stoli into their prized reef was a good idea or dipping their corals in insecticide was a good idea? The point I'm trying to make is, most discoveries come from random happenstance, random experimentation and plain old dumb luck. I view this forum as a place to explore and discuss unique and sometimes way out ideas about reef keeping, else all we need is a book or two of dated information to guild us. If someone wants to dump garlic, clove or ginger in there tank, so be it. Maybe something will come of it. Maybe not. But pontificating and claiming to know better than others just isn't right in this forum. Just sanyin'. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to one day see a bottle of the stuff in the LFS for $29.99 :spin3:

 

[Osama]

I plan to keep doing whatever I can to save him while in the 500g tank. More ideas in that domain will be a priority for me. I like to know and learn about other thoughts...His stress is increasing from the Sohal tang that was leaving him alone before. So far no damage in an eleven foot long tank. Had both tangs for over 4 months in a small 65g while preparing their new home. Somehow I got the main tank contaminated... I have aaUV unit on. Should I put charcoal in an empty but hooked up GFO..

 

[Osama]

Happy New Year to You All and many thanks to ALL and to RC for the support and information they provide us..

 

[JB63]

I plan to keep doing whatever I can to save him while in the 500g tank. More ideas in that domain will be a priority for me. I like to know and learn about other thoughts...His stress is increasing from the Sohal tang that was leaving him alone before. So far no damage in an eleven foot long tank. Had both tangs for over 4 months in a small 65g while preparing their new home. Somehow I got the main tank contaminated... I have aaUV unit on. Should I put charcoal in an empty but hooked up GFO..

Might be worthwhile 'tinkering' with the UV ... is the flow rate optimized for killing pathogens? Some UV makers tell you specifically what flow rate to use based on the 'length' of the 'exposure chamber'. This is secondary though, and your best bet would be to somehow catch him. Good Luck.

 

[DCReefer1964]

Might be worthwhile 'tinkering' with the UV ... is the flow rate optimized for killing pathogens? Some UV makers tell you specifically what flow rate to use based on the 'length' of the 'exposure chamber'. This is secondary though, and your best bet would be to somehow catch him. Good Luck.

+1 good recommendation

 

[Osama]

Thanks JB I will look into the UV... It is on and flow rate is controlled by skimmer performance but I can tinker with that... Happy New Year

 

[tmz]

I view this forum as a place to explore and discuss unique and sometimes way out ideas about reef keeping, else all we need is a book or two of dated information to guild us. If someone wants to dump garlic, clove or ginger in there tank, so be it. Maybe something will come of it. Maybe not. But pontificating and claiming to know better than others just isn't right in this forum. Just sanyin'. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to one day see a bottle of the stuff in the LFS for $29.99

Will you buy it? Garlic ,ginger and a host of other herbal bits have been tried;they don't effect ich. More fish die as folks are misled and doodle around avoiding truly proven effective treatment methods. If that's ok with you; so be it. It's not an RC goal. The forum is to share information and facts not just anecdotes or favored home brewed theories and rants which are welcome but subject to critiique ;no matter how entertaining they may be. Folks make there own decisions . Most of us hope to help insure they have the information they need to do so in an informed way with a view toward proper care for the animals we keep.

 

[tmz]

Happy New Year to You All and many thanks to ALL and to RC for the support and information they provide us..

Happy New year to you.

One of the fish I had during the initial hope and cope period on my tank is Paracanturus Hepatus. It is now 10 years old and thriving. Ich free for about 8 years. Spots popped up for a long period of time , after small shifts in temperature from 77 to 80. Cool side water may slow the parasite. Feed it meaty foods ,it's more carnivorous than herbivorous, at least twice a day. A little algae is good too but not it's main diet. The Acanthurus sohal is beautiful fish; I have always wanted one: but, it's a real bad boy, highly territorial and aggressive and may prove to be too much for the Hippo. Some hiding places might help.

The relative effectiveness of the uv depends on the size of the target organism. The larger the organism the more radiation needed for lethal results. Protozoans like ich are larger than bacteria. The amount of radiation depends on the wattage of the lamp and the dwell time. So tinkering with flow can increase the dwell time. However, decreasing the flow through will also expose fewer parasites. With uv for targeting parasites; bigger is better but watch the tank temperature. A uv won't eradicate the ich; the most you can hope for is some temporary reduction in density of ich and bacteria in the water column. Surviving organisms tend to take up the slack when hosts are available ,though.
I wish I had more to offer on how to cope with ich in a tank. Herbal remedies and magic cures are likely to do more harm than good,imo. Some may add to nutrient load, bacterial degradation and oxygen depletion.

I'd :keep the tank on the cool side( 77 to 78);vacuum surfaces as best as you can form time to time to suck up any cysts;feed regularly on an established schedule, keep water parameters steady ,particularly salinity;avoid new additions; observe frequently. Some folks are experimenting with choroquinine phosphate in reef tanks. Results are mixed but you may want to check out this thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2136214

 

[Bilk]

I view this forum as a place to explore and discuss unique and sometimes way out ideas about reef keeping, else all we need is a book or two of dated information to guild us. If someone wants to dump garlic, clove or ginger in there tank, so be it. Maybe something will come of it. Maybe not. But pontificating and claiming to know better than others just isn't right in this forum. Just sanyin'. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to one day see a bottle of the stuff in the LFS for $29.99

Will you buy it? Garlic ,ginger and a host of other herbal bits have been tried;they don't effect ich. More fish die as folks are misled and doodle around avoiding truly proven effective treatment methods. If that's ok with you; so be it. It's not an RC goal. The forum is to share information and facts not just anecdotes or favored home brewed theories and rants which are welcome but subject to critiique ;no matter how entertaining they may be. Folks make there own decisions . Most of us hope to help insure they have the information they need to do so in an informed way with a view toward proper care for the animals we keep.

There's little harm to come from those substances vs many that people do use incorrectly. Have issue with that. I have issue with the multitude of bottles that have no ingredients on them in this hobby. Some may be harmful substances to not only marine life if used incorrectly, but human life as well. If you need a crusade that's a good place to start. Additionally, where's your substantiated proof these remedies don't work? Anecdotal evidence because a fish died? Or do you have toxicological evidence you can provide?

I guess we should all just buy a book and forget about the forums. After all, there's nothing hobbyists have provided to the development of this hobby

 

[Osama]

Thanks Tom for your valuable insight. I may have rushed things by buying and adding to my tank. I continue to be impatient at age 70 wanting to see those beautiful fish !! now I am proceeding with caution to try & improve the health of the fish, ... Hope for the best...

 

[blanden.adam]

I wonder if your books explained how the greatest medical discovery came about? How someone irresponsibly left a contaminated petri dish out and upon returning witnessed something that he might not have had he just tossed it in the autoclave?

It was happenstance and then observation. It wasn't divine knowledge handed down by the almighty. It was an error. It wasn't even a "hey let's see what this will do" or based on any prior knowledge - well that is if you believe the official story. Me? I personally believe it was based on Westerners observing Asian remedies, as they have been using fouled, spoilt foods and their derivatives for centuries as cures, prior to the discovery of penicillin. You know? The stuff witch doctors and medicine men used and then were co-opted by the pharmaceutical industry for profit.

Know how warfarin was discovered? Rotting animal feed. Now it's the most prescribed drug on the planet. I wouldn't have any issues with it if it weren't first used to eliminated rodents Wonder who was the first to want to try that?

Heck I wonder who was the first reef head that thought dumping Stoli into their prized reef was a good idea or dipping their corals in insecticide was a good idea? The point I'm trying to make is, most discoveries come from random happenstance, random experimentation and plain old dumb luck. I view this forum as a place to explore and discuss unique and sometimes way out ideas about reef keeping, else all we need is a book or two of dated information to guild us. If someone wants to dump garlic, clove or ginger in there tank, so be it. Maybe something will come of it. Maybe not. But pontificating and claiming to know better than others just isn't right in this forum. Just sanyin'. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to one day see a bottle of the stuff in the LFS for $29.99 :spin3:

Sure, serendipity has played a major role in a lot of scientific advances, and if you bothered to take the time to read the thread you would find that I defended the value of anecdotal reports in generating hypotheses, as well as listed several instances of where "random herbs" resulted in medicine we still use. BUT, saying that because some major medical advances were a result of "happy mistakes" that most discoveries are random and that therefore all ideas are equally supported is a fallacy of false equivalence, as well as a mischaracterization of how science is conducted and has progressed. What looks to the outsider like dumb luck most often isn't. Furthermore, such discoveries aren't relegated to a single anecdotal report before they got adopted -- they were studied in depth by scientists and demonstrated to work reproducibly. A claim that can't be shared by garlic.

With regard to claiming to know better than others not being right on this forum -- the fact of the matter is some people do know better than others in some topics. That is why we have this forum, to share our ideas as well as what we know and come up with what are the best practices so we can all get better. Not all ideas work, and of those ideas that work some work better than others. Some ideas are dismissed prematurely and then later demonstrated to work. We discuss them here with the best reasoning, and the best supporting information we can to find the best ones in time. This is how good exchanges go. Ideas get put on the table, they battle, and the best ones rise to the top.

For the life of me I will never understand the mindset that all ideas, regardless of foundation or result, are equal in value. If that were true then this is all a terrible waste of time.