Ginger works with ich... Every time I use it

[blanden.adam]

There's little harm to come from those substances vs many that people do use incorrectly. Have issue with that. I have issue with the multitude of bottles that have no ingredients on them in this hobby. Some may be harmful substances to not only marine life if used incorrectly, but human life as well. If you need a crusade that's a good place to start. Additionally, where's your substantiated proof these remedies don't work? Anecdotal evidence because a fish died? Or do you have toxicological evidence you can provide?

I guess we should all just buy a book and forget about the forums. After all, there's nothing hobbyists have provided to the development of this hobby

Books are good, forums are good, we need not use one to the exclusion of the other.

Also, the logic of your statement is a little unfair. The burden of proof for a positive claim is on the one making the claim. Logically, the way experiments work is there is an assumption that the compound (or any intervention for that matter) has no effect (this is the null hypothesis). After administering the intervention, you test for a change and see if the difference is sufficient to reject the null hypothesis, thus providing evidence that a compound worked. So asking someone to "prove" a compound doesn't work isn't really a possible thing -- you can only fail to reject the idea that it didn't work, which is kind of where you started.

I agree with your crusade against unlabled bottles of aquarium magic, and will continue to recommend against them everywhere I go

 

[Bilk]

Books are good, forums are good, we need not use one to the exclusion of the other.

Also, the logic of your statement is a little unfair. The burden of proof for a positive claim is on the one making the claim. Logically, the way experiments work is there is an assumption that the compound (or any intervention for that matter) has no effect (this is the null hypothesis). After administering the intervention, you test for a change and see if the difference is sufficient to reject the null hypothesis, thus providing evidence that a compound worked. So asking someone to "prove" a compound doesn't work isn't really a possible thing -- you can only fail to reject the idea that it didn't work, which is kind of where you started.

I agree with your crusade against unlabled bottles of aquarium magic, and will continue to recommend against them everywhere I go

I'm sorry I went off a bit. I guess I'm a bit tired of people responding with ultimate certainty and or attacking those who do not follow what's either considered the normal conventions or accepted protocols because they have no first hand knowledge of the alternative being presented. I also don't like when people come here either for help or to impart some observation and then get attacked in an unwarranted fashion because it doesn't fit into someone else's husbandry beliefs.

There may be some merit to the ginger. Who knows? For all we know, some of the magic in a bottle may contain just that, but because not much is ever labeled, we won't know. But someone will suggest pouring the stuff in a tank without hesitation, and no one of any standing here, seems to take issue with that. I just think this was a matter that got out of hand and the OP and a few others took the brunt of it.

 

[blanden.adam]

I'm sorry I went off a bit. I guess I'm a bit tired of people responding with ultimate certainty and or attacking those who do not follow what's either considered the normal conventions or accepted protocols because they have no first hand knowledge of the alternative being presented. I also don't like when people come here either for help or to impart some observation and then get attacked in an unwarranted fashion because it doesn't fit into someone else's husbandry beliefs.

There may be some merit to the ginger. Who knows? For all we know, some of the magic in a bottle may contain just that, but because not much is ever labeled, we won't know. But someone will suggest pouring the stuff in a tank without hesitation, and no one of any standing here, seems to take issue with that. I just think this was a matter that got out of hand and the OP and a few others took the brunt of it.

I agree that a few times on this thread (and on others) people, including the OP, got treated harshly, and a bit unfairly. We should all strive to be nicer to each other in the new year, while maintaining the best possible standards of information we can

 

[JB63]

... His stress is increasing from the Sohal tang that was leaving him alone ...

Here is another thought: can you capture the Sohal and house him outside for few days? That would be least stressful for the blue as he'd have the whole tank for himself ... You'd let him then recover on his own, then reintroduce the bully.

 

[JB63]

I agree that a few times on this thread (and on others) people, including the OP, got treated harshly, and a bit unfairly. We should all strive to be nicer to each other in the new year, while maintaining the best possible standards of information we can

Very nicely done! Reminds me of a management course I took sometime back, where the focus was on 'Team Dynamics' ... There are essentially 4 stages, every time you bring a group of people together. Like it or not, it somehow always happens ...

1. Team Forming
2. Storming
3. Norming (or Normalizing)
4. Performing

It seems now, and that's encouraging, we're somewhere between 3 and 4. I did take offense when, right after I mentioned garlic, I was 'quickly' shut down by comments such as ' irrelevant', 'unproven', or 'people believe what they want to believe' ... Darn it, most people on here are no dummies ... and we should treat others with due respect. No one's experience is more/less valid than mine ... That is why we have statistics as not all 'experiments' are run in a controlled fashion under the same boundary conditions ...

Happy New Year Y'all

 

[tmz]

There's little harm to come from those substances vs many that people do use incorrectly. Have issue with that. I have issue with the multitude of bottles that have no ingredients on them in this hobby. Some may be harmful substances to not only marine life if used incorrectly, but human life as well. If you need a crusade that's a good place to start. Additionally, where's your substantiated proof these remedies don't work? Anecdotal evidence because a fish died? Or do you have toxicological evidence you can provide?

I guess we should all just buy a book and forget about the forums. After all, there's nothing hobbyists have provided to the development of this hobby

Of course there is harm at least from neglect at the least. . I explained that several times.
Sounds like you want to lead a crusade about what I don't exactly know.
If you read this forum it should be very clear that I and others always take issue with products without defined ingredients and will continue to do so .

My goal is to provide information based on the literature and my experience .When that involves challenging misinformation it's never personal just as accurate as I can make it.
What remedies? One post claiming ginger makes the ich go away everytime,ie, when it comes back too. The whole thing is an oxymoron. A couple of others indicating they tried it with no effect. Why would any reasonable person expect documented proof about any random element with no evident success and no plausible reason to suspect any?
The documentation on effective treatments for this parasite on the other hand is vast. You don't have to buy a book ;there is plenty of it on line. Take the time to learn about it ;it's worth it.
There is no reason to attack people personally. I don't unless I'm responding in kind. I've cautioned others on numerous occasions about that type of behavior . It just detracts from the free flow of valuable information anecdotal or otherwise.

 

[Bilk]

Of course there is harm at least from neglect at the least. . I explained that several times.
Sounds like you want to lead a crusade about what I don't exactly know.
If you read this forum it should be very clear that I and others always take issue with products without defined ingredients and will continue to do so .

My goal is to provide information based on the literature and my experience .When that involves challenging misinformation it's never personal just as accurate as I can make it.
What remedies? One post claiming ginger makes the ich go away everytime,ie, when it comes back too. The whole thing is an oxymoron. A couple of others indicating they tried it with no effect. Why would any reasonable person expect documented proof about any random element with no evident success and no plausible reason to suspect any?
The documentation on effective treatments for this parasite on the other hand is vast. You don't have to buy a book ;there is plenty of it on line. Take the time to learn about it ;it's worth it.
There is no reason to attack people personally. I don't unless I'm responding in kind. I've cautioned others on numerous occasions about that type of behavior . It just detracts from the free flow of valuable information anecdotal or otherwise.

Now you're insulting me. Fine. It's your sandbox. Do what you want with it. I'm thru with the conversation.

 

[Osama]

Jb Greatly appreciate your continued flow of info & suggestions.. First Happy New Year to ALL. Here is where I am today.. One fish is dead one almost dead. both are out of the tank as luckily they were not buried under the rocks. Both are fish I bought from a trusted LFS/Installer of my system. They maybe the main cause/start of my fish tank contamination or maybe they were not and were contaminated from my system that was in VG condition except for one of four fish had a not 100% clear eye. The one that died was a yellow tang that I could not see anything on his body and was grazing all over the tank and I felt extremely good about it grazing. Well three days after purchase he is gone. The other one is a striped tang now in an empty frag tank on the same setup and waiting to be moved to a separate tank . I will need to know how to best set it up for QT/Meds it is a 65 g or it would be easier to setup a small I believe a 12 or 20g tank that I have. Your thoughts on which tank and how to best setup the simplist QT/med tank. I will go for the 12-20 as it will be much easier for a quick setup.

 

[living_waters]

Can you all stop crying about this and just tell me how much I should use in a 36 I have a quarantine tank and was ignorant and didn't use it so please dosing measurements anyone?

 

[Osama]

Sad to report that I have 3 dead fish and it is primarily for not quarantine new fish and believing in my supplier and my impatient attitude to want to see more fish in the DT. Other fish are struggling, hope they survive and all was well three days ago...

 

[blanden.adam]

Can you all stop crying about this and just tell me how much I should use in a 36 I have a quarantine tank and was ignorant and didn't use it so please dosing measurements anyone?

Roughly 0 ppm. Catch the fish in the tank, place them in a quarrantine, and dose with cupramine as per manufacturers instructions. Leave the DT fallow for 72 days at minimum. Then reintroduce the fish.

 

[JB63]

Jb Greatly appreciate your continued flow of info & suggestions.. First Happy New Year to ALL. Here is where I am today.. One fish is dead one almost dead. both are out of the tank as luckily they were not buried under the rocks. Both are fish I bought from a trusted LFS/Installer of my system. They maybe the main cause/start of my fish tank contamination or maybe they were not and were contaminated from my system that was in VG condition except for one of four fish had a not 100% clear eye. The one that died was a yellow tang that I could not see anything on his body and was grazing all over the tank and I felt extremely good about it grazing. Well three days after purchase he is gone. The other one is a striped tang now in an empty frag tank on the same setup and waiting to be moved to a separate tank . I will need to know how to best set it up for QT/Meds it is a 65 g or it would be easier to setup a small I believe a 12 or 20g tank that I have. Your thoughts on which tank and how to best setup the simplist QT/med tank. I will go for the 12-20 as it will be much easier for a quick setup.

Sorry to hear that. I've lost few fish of my own and it's always an upsetting event. Well, that's the price we have to pay for experience somehow. e now have two things we need to work on.

1. Clean the DT of any Ich. The lifecycle of Ich is about 10-14 days and typically without a host, Ich will die. Some will tell you to run the tank 'fallow' i.e., without any fish for a much longer time (wweks). I have never done that and not sure what the jury is on this. Keep in mind that there are many parameters 'hidden' behind anyone's experience. Typically the longer the better, of course. Make sure UV is running continuously during fallow period.

2. Setting Up a Quarantine/Hospital Tank: Two things to keep in mind here. Tank needs to be large enough so the fish is not stressed (Tangs need a lot of swimming space) and yet, especially if you'll be medicating, you'd need frequent (almost daily) water changes. The bigger the tank, the more water+salt u'd be flushing down ... I have a 20L I use as hospital.

3. Fish purchase: Get your fish from a 'trusted' source. The typical LFS is 'not' your friend, and most need to turn over their stock asap. I'll be 'flamed' for that comment.

4. Fish Treatment: I'd say put the new fish in the QT/hospital Tank and observe for any signs of disease (there is a subforum for this). You can play it safe and medicate anyway, but it's a fine-line between ensuring fish recovers from his stressful journey and medicating heavily. Typical treatment would be: Copper, Malachite Green, and Prazipro.

Hope this helps. There is also a subforum on fish disease+treatment and it might be worthwhile to get input from experienced people there as well.

Good Luck, and hope this helps.

 

[JB63]

Sad to report that I have 3 dead fish and it is primarily for not quarantine new fish and believing in my supplier and my impatient attitude to want to see more fish in the DT. Other fish are struggling, hope they survive and all was well three days ago...

Really sad to hear that. Were all deaths attributed to Ich? Is there something fundamentally 'off' with your setup?

What fish do you have? Typically Tangs are prone to Ich, but other fish are ok with it. They can both be in the tank and would not catch it (e.g. coris wrasses)

So, can you tell me a bit more about your tank:

Size, how long it's been running, reef or FOWLR, did it cycle 'properly', various parameters (salinity, pH, ammonia, temperature, ...) pumps for circulation (yes, that is important for O2 and fish to breathe)

 

[vitz]

Really sad to hear that. Were all deaths attributed to Ich? Is there something fundamentally 'off' with your setup?

What fish do you have? Typically Tangs are prone to Ich, but other fish are ok with it. They can both be in the tank and would not catch it (e.g. coris wrasses)

So, can you tell me a bit more about your tank:

Size, how long it's been running, reef or FOWLR, did it cycle 'properly', various parameters (salinity, pH, ammonia, temperature, ...) pumps for circulation (yes, that is important for O2 and fish to breathe)

could you elaborate on that? i've yet to see a species of fish kept in aquaria that couldn't/didn't get ich, or die from it,including fish that clean other fish of parasites (neon gobies and cleaner wrasses), and all coris species in this hobby. which species of fish are you claiming don't get ich, and on what do you base this claim ?

 

[JB63]

could you elaborate on that? i've yet to see a species of fish kept in aquaria that couldn't/didn't get ich, or die from it,including fish that clean other fish of parasites (neon gobies and cleaner wrasses), and all coris species in this hobby. which species of fish are you claiming don't get ich, and on what do you base this claim ?

It is not a 'claim' as you call it, it is a series of observations based on my 10+ years in this hobby.

I did not say other fish do not get it ... I said they're 'OK' with it. What I meant is, while some fish (e.g. Tangs) are known 'Ich Magnets', others are least susceptible to it. During my early years with this hobby, I've had mixed tanks with both healthy fish and those with Ich all together. Somehow some of those fish never got Ich, even though they were swimming with sick fish.

I've seen Ich primarily with Tangs, and rarely with butterflies and angels, but NEVER on red/twinspot/yellow Coris wrasses. This is based on my own experience, it is not to imply that such fish cannot get it. Some are simply less susceptible to it (for the same reason some are 'magnets').

In fact, such observation was echoed by the owner of an LFS I visit regularly (and he sees more fish than I do). His 'theory' is that some wrasses have a 'thicker' slime and as such, Ich cannot latch on to them. I have never 'verified' such theory though.

Might be worthwhile starting a thread and asking for fellow reefers' experience with fish that catch and those that do not catch Ich.

 

[Allmost]

could you elaborate on that? i've yet to see a species of fish kept in aquaria that couldn't/didn't get ich, or die from it,including fish that clean other fish of parasites (neon gobies and cleaner wrasses), and all coris species in this hobby. which species of fish are you claiming don't get ich, and on what do you base this claim ?

Vitz, some fish have thicker mucus coating, making them more resistance to ich, like wrasses and anthias. this is opposite to thin mucus coat on tangs.

 

[Osama]

Thanks JB and ALL
Here is my new MDT tank setup:500g (130X30X31) Mixed Reef with 60g frag tank and 60g (36X24X16)refugium and 60g (48X18X16)sump//
Here is a list of fish I had including the three lost fish: Tangs: Sohal Blue Naso Yellow Clown Scopas One copeerband, 4 banggai 1 yellow head wrasse one cleaner wrasse i blenny
Lost blenny (I think dead) , Clown tang and yellow tang all recent purchase on 12/29 dead on 12/31.
Tank parameters as of 1 hr ago:
Ammonia<0.5,, Nitrite & nitrate zero,, phosphate <.25, calcium 430 , dKh 8-9 mg=1020
I will be adding gradually mg and alk

 

[vitz]

Vitz, some fish have thicker mucus coating, making them more resistance to ich, like wrasses and anthias. this is opposite to thin mucus coat on tangs.

and yet every one of those species has been seen to get ich and die from it, in appreciable amounts. a thick mucus coat is no guarantee whatsoever that any fish species won't catch, or die from ich, and i think it's dangerous/irresponsible to tell others that they're at less risk because of what the odds *might* be.

no fish is guaranteed immune to ich, euronema, or brooklynellae. not a one.

it really doesn't matter how many years *one* hobbyist, or *one* store has w/ regard to disease experience/statistics. it's such a small sample in the grand scheme of things it's irrelevant towards making claims of any kind.

go spend a year, at least, at any major wholesaler/importer to get a scale of the amounts of fish we're talking about, and extrapolate that to dozens of importers over decades. the dead fish i've thrown out to the trash in one month's worth of bad shipments/sick fish that couldn't be recovered/healed is likely more than the total (live AND dead) many lfs's see in a yr. i only have about 4 yrs total split between working at two wholesaler/importers, and mebbe a dozen stores in 2 countries and THAT itself is a drop in the proverbial bucket, heh.

importers see bugs that many lfs's, and most hobbyists, never see. the point of landing is the 'black hole' of diseases/parasites etc.

these types of generalizations made re: making a conclusion that 'x' doesn't happen because one individual or store hasn't seen 'x' happen are very dangerous, and one of the ways many misconceptions/non-truths get spread about in this hobby. i'm very concerned that a hobbyist will think that just because they have an 'ich resistant fish' according to one individual, or one store, they shouldn't treat or quarrantine properly.

(to say nothing of the fact that a mucus coat itself can be a fomont/means of transmission, even if the fish that has that coat doesn't get affected-typhoid mary, anyone? )

just sayin'

 

[Allmost]

and yet every one of those species has been seen to get ich and die from it, in appreciable amounts. a thick mucus coat is no guarantee whatsoever that any fish species won't catch, or die from ich, and i think it's dangerous/irresponsible to tell others that they're at less risk because of what the odds *might* be.

no fish is guaranteed immune to ich, euronema, or brooklynellae. not a one.

it really doesn't matter how many years *one* hobbyist, or *one* store has w/ regard to disease experience/statistics. it's such a small sample in the grand scheme of things it's irrelevant towards making claims of any kind.

go spend a year, at least, at any major wholesaler/importer to get a scale of the amounts of fish we're talking about, and extrapolate that to dozens of importers over decades. the dead fish i've thrown out to the trash in one month's worth of bad shipments/sick fish that couldn't be recovered/healed is likely more than the total (live AND dead) many lfs's see in a yr. i only have about 4 yrs total split between working at two wholesaler/importers, and mebbe a dozen stores in 2 countries and THAT itself is a drop in the proverbial bucket, heh.

importers see bugs that many lfs's, and most hobbyists, never see. the point of landing is the 'black hole' of diseases/parasites etc.

these types of generalizations made re: making a conclusion that 'x' doesn't happen because one individual or store hasn't seen 'x' happen are very dangerous, and one of the ways many misconceptions/non-truths get spread about in this hobby. i'm very concerned that a hobbyists will think that just because they have an 'ich resistant fish' according to one individual, or one store, they shouldn't treat or quarrantine properly.

(to say nothing of the fact that a mucus coat itself can be a fomont/means of transmission, even if the fish that has that coat doesn't get affected-typhoid mary, anyone? )

just sayin'

is that really how u feel about the education of Youths in Asia ? [HUH ? what does that have to do ? thats how I feel when I read ure reply ]

ever tried reading before writing a novel ?

I said "Vitz, some fish have thicker mucus coating, making them more resistance to ich, like wrasses and anthias."

Please look up the Bold parts on online dictionary. it does not seem like you understood my post.

more resistance and immune are not the same. maybe they were back in the days.

 

[vitz]

how do you deal with the myriad scenarios/situations where fish lose their mucus coat, like handling w/a net, lifting a fish into air, and other stressors?