Global warming?

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I don't know maybe you store it. Maybe ask France or the US Navy for suggestions. Maybe you spend a whole bunch of money developing even safer ways of dealing with it. That would still be cheaper than developing a technology that doesn't exist and then switching the world over to it. Then when, or rather if a cleaner viable energy alternative is developed you can make a transition to that.

Point is, if you actually believe the doom and gloom of manmade global warming predictions then there is no way you can logically argue against nuclear energy. Therefore, you must not truely believe your own argument.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12425873#post12425873 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichardS
I don't know maybe you store it.

That's just it, your trading one problem for another. Not really a true solution. Currently it's just stored. Some of it is stored on the ocean floor about 2000 feet down :rolleyes: The solution to the storage problem is technology that doesn't exist. Wind power and solar power are both technologies that do exist. While they can use some work in developing better efficiencies, they still exist and are worthwhile to develop.
 
What are the results of manmade global warming? Global catastrophe as never before seen is my understanding.

Are you saying that storing nuclear waste is going to destroy the planet?

Are you saying that solar and wind power can provide the worlds energy needs? How many wind turbines would it take to power even a medium size city?

I went around in circles on this issue in another thread and no gw believers can give a reasonable answer. You believe the world is going to be destroyed in the relatively near future but that is a better option than storing nuclear waste. Illogical.
 
I've got it. Once oil has no value you can store all the nuclear waste in the deserts of the middle east. They'll be happy to have any type of job at that point. Problem solved, let's go nuclear and save the planet.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12425632#post12425632 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichardS
Well let see, it would greatly reduce the amount of CO2 we are putting in the atmosphere. It's a technology that is safe and more importantly it already exists. The fact that global warming activists have always been against nuclear has always been proof to me that they do not actually believe their own dire predictions of global disaster due to manmade global warming. If you actually believed that global disaster was going to occur in only a couple of decades then you would be screaming to go nuclear instead of talking about inventing some new feel good technology which could never be developed and implemented in the short amount of time the greenies say we have left before the end of the world.

I agree, that nuclear is better than most at reducing CO2 emissions. But it is just bad technology. Don't get me wrong, I do believe it is wise to continue research into nuclear technology, but in the end it will be too expensive too late. Solar thermal can provide base load or even better, load following power. Solar thermal can easily provide enough power for any country, including the USA. Once mixed with wind, Solar PV, Hydrogen and geothermal power you are on a winner. All these technologies are booming and getting up and running throughout the world including the USA. It's just a shame that a lot of the companies are European. It could really help the US economy if they were US companies.

All the technologies mentioned would mean a country like the USA could survive without importing energy sources, and would have also reduce the risk of bad material getting into the wrong hands.
Surely this is a good thing.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12426090#post12426090 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichardS
You believe the world is going to be destroyed in the relatively near future but that is a better option than storing nuclear waste. Illogical.

I've never claimed the world is going to be destroyed ;) There will be changes, but that is not the same thing as destroyed.

As for those barrels of nuclear waste disposed at sea, I've seen pictures of those rusting barrels with fish swimming around them. Species of deep sea fish that also happen to end up on our menu as monkfish or unspecified "white fish fillets". Still feel good about just "storing" that type of waste?
 
Would I feel good about storing nuclear waste in metal barrels and then putting them in saltwater? Nope. Would I feel good about putting huge wind farms in the migratory paths of birds? Nope. Would I feel good about clearing rainforest to make room for solar farms? Nope. There's a wrong way to do anything.

Well I guess I misunderstood what the predicted effects of global warming were going to be. A few changes in the climate and we have have plenty of time so there's no need to use nuclear energy. Sounds good to me.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0401-01.htm
Published on Sunday, April 1, 2001 in the Observer of London
Global Warming
The World in 2050
by Robin McKie and Priscilla Morris

It is the year 2050, and April blizzards have gripped southern England for the third successive year while violent storms batter the North Sea coast. The Gulf Stream, whose warming waters once heated our shores, has long since disappeared, destroyed by a deluge pouring south from the melting Arctic ice cap.
In the United States, much of Alaska has turned into a quagmire as permafrost and glaciers disintegrate. In Colorado, chair lift pylons stand rusting in the warm drizzle, reminders that the nation once supported a billion-dollar ski industry, while the remnants of Florida are declared America's second island state.

Africa is faring badly. Its coastline from Cairo to Lagos is completely flooded and many of the major cities have been abandoned. Tens of millions of people have been forced to flee and are struggling to survive in a parched, waterless interior.

In Asia there is a similar, terrifying picture. Bangladesh is almost totally inundated and the East Indies have been reduced to a few scrappy islands. Tens of millions stand on the brink of death.

It is a startling scenario worthy of a science fiction disaster film. And it would be easy to dismiss, were it not for the uncomfortable fact that these visions are the result of rigorous scientific analysis by some of the world's most distinguished climatologists.

As the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) points out in its recent Climate Change 2001 report, global warming is likely to trigger a cascade of unpleasant effects: elderly people will suffer and die in smoggy, polluted cities; crops will fail; and wildlife and livestock will perish on a scorched and miserable planet. That report was the combined work of several thousand of the world's leading meteorological experts, scientists whose views George Bush has now dismissed as 'questionable' and whose work in creating the Kyoto protocol has been utterly undone.

The US decision to pull out of the international accord on climate change has caused predictable international alarm, though it is important to note it will have no direct effect on levels of carbon dioxide now circulating in the atmosphere. Kyoto merely pledged developed countries to restrict their industrial output. 'It was an excellent first step towards reversing climate change,' according to Southampton University's Professor Nigel Arnell. Kyoto was, in effect, a statement of intent. The industrial nations which had, after all, initiated the problem of global warming, would show their commitment by making the first crucial, self-sacrificing moves. Then the Third World could be drawn in, and the first decreases in carbon-dioxide emissions agreed over the next few years. 'Bush has now made the attainment of these next crucial steps much more difficult,' says Arnell. In fact, most experts believe he has made them impossible. If the West won't act, why should the rest of the world? If no action is taken, the consequences are likely to be calamitous. Before the industrial revolution, the atmosphere was made up of 250 parts per million of carbon dioxide. Now that figure has reached 366 and is already producing meteorological effects: a steady increase in devastating storms across Britain, rising sea levels, and dwindling glaciers and ice-caps. And that is just the start. Carbon dioxide levels will inevitably reach 450, even if governments closed every factory tomorrow. 'Plants absorb carbon dioxide and when they die they release that gas,' says Dr David Griggs of the IPCC's science working group. 'Similarly, the oceans absorb and release carbon dioxide.' These carbon dioxide stores mean that we could not stop atmospheric levels rising for future decades, no matter what we did. 'The climate is changing and will continue to change, regardless of what George Bush says,' comments Dr Mike Hulme of the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change in Norwich.

In any case, closing down factories is not on the cards. With the nation responsible for a quarter of all global carbon dioxide emissions refusing to limit its output by the merest fraction, levels will inevitably reach 550 parts per million - double their pre-industrial revolution figure - by about 2050. By then the world's temperature will have increased by 1.4 degrees Centigrade, triggering the mayhem outlined in the IPCC report. 'It is very difficult to make hard predictions,' adds Griggs. 'All we can say is that the future is going to be very uncertain, highly variable.' Britain provides an excellent example of the problem. We may swelter - or, if icy Arctic waters divert the Gulf Stream, we may shiver. Either way, the consequences will mean millions of homes will be refused insurance, native wildlife will perish and great chunks of coastline will be inundated.

And, say meteorologists, it now looks as if there is nothing we can do about it.
 
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Wow, don't you guys, Richard excluded, read?

scottras, I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but where do you get this stuff? Pipedreams.com. You claimed earlier that nuclear is dirty, its only emmision is steam? Geothermal and solar are not viable solutions. They have been studied for decades. The only reason they are being used today is for PR purposes.

You can power a naval ship for years on fuel the size of a golf ball. Storage? Are you kidding me? Have you never heard of Yucca mountain? It a waste disposal facility capable of storing spent fuel for as long as we can immagine. It has no water table and is deep and safe. So whats the problem, well knotheads who are clueless don't want the spent fuel transported through there neighborhoods. They are concerned about a crash. Of course they don't take the time to research it, just knee jerk crap. First of all the waste is low grade, second of all the containers have been tested and rammed by a locomotive and there was no leak! The risk is so low, its not even worth talking about.

300 nuclear plants could power the entire USA. Clean, safe, cheap, abundant power and contrary to scottras's statement, the technology is very very good. This should be a no brainer.

I enjoy having discussions about this stuff, but if your going to make absurd claims, site some resources so I can take you seriously or at least see what propagandist is feeding you this stuff.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12428236#post12428236 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
Wow, don't you guys, Richard excluded, read?

scottras, I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but where do you get this stuff? Pipedreams.com. You claimed earlier that nuclear is dirty, its only emmision is steam? Geothermal and solar are not viable solutions. They have been studied for decades. The only reason they are being used today is for PR purposes.

You can power a naval ship for years on fuel the size of a golf ball. Storage? Are you kidding me? Have you never heard of Yucca mountain? It a waste disposal facility capable of storing spent fuel for as long as we can immagine. It has no water table and is deep and safe. So whats the problem, well knotheads who are clueless don't want the spent fuel transported through there neighborhoods. They are concerned about a crash. Of course they don't take the time to research it, just knee jerk crap. First of all the waste is low grade, second of all the containers have been tested and rammed by a locomotive and there was no leak! The risk is so low, its not even worth talking about.

300 nuclear plants could power the entire USA. Clean, safe, cheap, abundant power and contrary to scottras's statement, the technology is very very good. This should be a no brainer.

I enjoy having discussions about this stuff, but if your going to make absurd claims, site some resources so I can take you seriously or at least see what propagandist is feeding you this stuff.

Don't worry, they have no data!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12428236#post12428236 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
Wow, don't you guys, Richard excluded, read?

scottras, I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but where do you get this stuff? Pipedreams.com. You claimed earlier that nuclear is dirty, its only emmision is steam? Geothermal and solar are not viable solutions. They have been studied for decades. The only reason they are being used today is for PR purposes.

You can power a naval ship for years on fuel the size of a golf ball. Storage? Are you kidding me? Have you never heard of Yucca mountain? It a waste disposal facility capable of storing spent fuel for as long as we can immagine. It has no water table and is deep and safe. So whats the problem, well knotheads who are clueless don't want the spent fuel transported through there neighborhoods. They are concerned about a crash. Of course they don't take the time to research it, just knee jerk crap. First of all the waste is low grade, second of all the containers have been tested and rammed by a locomotive and there was no leak! The risk is so low, its not even worth talking about.

300 nuclear plants could power the entire USA. Clean, safe, cheap, abundant power and contrary to scottras's statement, the technology is very very good. This should be a no brainer.

I enjoy having discussions about this stuff, but if your going to make absurd claims, site some resources so I can take you seriously or at least see what propagandist is feeding you this stuff.

Lol no problem MCary, it takes a lot to get me insulted. I guess it comes from a lot of different sources. Lots of websites, and podcasts. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_thermal_energy for a start. I don't like wiki too much but the references are good. This can also get you started: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=sunny-outlook-sunshine-provide-electricity

All that leads me to say that yes, nuclear is dirty, you have to transport the raw material, you have to transport and stor the waste material. Also the power stations and the shipments are targets for terrorists. So where are you getting all this nuclear material? I presume there are not many nuclear power stations on top of the uranium mines. How are you going to mine and transport the ore? by nuclear powered mining equipment and nuclear powered ships? How long until a country like the USA can build 300 nuclear power plants and where are you going to put them? I think there might be some objections.

Solar thermal is definitely the best option, and there are plenty of areas in the US that can have the power stations to best effect. There are also a few sites that can produce geothermal or hot rock power that can power a few states for thousands of years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_energy_in_the_United_States
Sounds like a no brainer to me.

Happy to go on with this conversation, but please don't be too aggressive or try to insult my intelligence.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12428236#post12428236 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
Have you never heard of Yucca mountain?

Ah yes, the old out of sight out of mind method of solving problems.
 
My aggressiveness was insulting. Sorry scottras. I feel that you are misguided and you are parroting the wrong people but that's no reason to stop being civil. My apologies again.

Mike
 
Ah yes, the old out of sight out of mind method of solving problems.

This is not unprecidented to store stuff underground. Helium is stored in old natural gas holes.

Uranium is mined from the ground. Putting it back there is a smart solution isn't it. You need to realize the small volume that spent rods are. How long they last. The measures taken at Yucca mountain to prevent leaks. The security. The low grade nature of the fuel. Resistance to nuclear power is all paranoia and is not based on real concern or risk.

and especially consider what sam and richard pointed out, if global climate change is the next plague then the minute risks of nuclear is worth it.

As much as people want to preach solar, here's the problem. Although solar power is immense, the energy is spread out and diffused to much to be of practical use. Today, and there is no reason why it will change, it takes more energy to collect and refine raw materials, manufacture the panels, and deliver to the site than the panel can produce in its lifetime. Plus you must put all the expense up front. Second, because of its limitations, you would need to panel the state of Nevada to put any serious relief on our energy needs.

And with the reaction of Ted Kennedy when they tryed to put up windmills near his home, I assume a "not in my backyard" attitude will prevail. And lets not forget the wildlife enthuiasts who will claim the tire tracks in the dessert will alter the migration patterns of the brown spotted owl eared supine gecko.

Mike
 
Put this in your conservation pipe and smoke it.

"If the USA seems too crowded and its roads too congested now, imagine future generations: The nation's population could more than triple to 1 billion as early as 2100.
That's the eye-popping projection that urban and rural planners, gathered today for their annual meeting in Las Vegas, are hearing from a land-use expert."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/census/2008-04-28-onebillion_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12429777#post12429777 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
My aggressiveness was insulting. Sorry scottras. I feel that you are misguided and you are parroting the wrong people but that's no reason to stop being civil. My apologies again.

Mike

Nah mate no need to apologise, i was just asking you not to get too aggressive. You have not insulted me yet.

I understand what you are saying, but I feel the same way about you. The solar industry in doubling every two years, the nuclear industry can't even raise funding without govt subsidies.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12429924#post12429924 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
This is not unprecidented to store stuff underground. Helium is stored in old natural gas holes.

Uranium is mined from the ground. Putting it back there is a smart solution isn't it. You need to realize the small volume that spent rods are. How long they last. The measures taken at Yucca mountain to prevent leaks. The security. The low grade nature of the fuel. Resistance to nuclear power is all paranoia and is not based on real concern or risk.

and especially consider what sam and richard pointed out, if global climate change is the next plague then the minute risks of nuclear is worth it.

As much as people want to preach solar, here's the problem. Although solar power is immense, the energy is spread out and diffused to much to be of practical use. Today, and there is no reason why it will change, it takes more energy to collect and refine raw materials, manufacture the panels, and deliver to the site than the panel can produce in its lifetime. Plus you must put all the expense up front. Second, because of its limitations, you would need to panel the state of Nevada to put any serious relief on our energy needs.

And with the reaction of Ted Kennedy when they tryed to put up windmills near his home, I assume a "not in my backyard" attitude will prevail. And lets not forget the wildlife enthuiasts who will claim the tire tracks in the dessert will alter the migration patterns of the brown spotted owl eared supine gecko.

Mike

I think you need to read what solar thermal power actually is. Sure it does take resources to make good mirrors, but not that much. They will pay for themselves far quicker than nuclear. You would need an area far smaller than Nevada. Actually the figures I have seen suggest you would need an area of about 100x100 miles. Obviously this would be scattered in many areas. This area could produce enough power to supply the entire load for the USA.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12431053#post12431053 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
Put this in your conservation pipe and smoke it.

"If the USA seems too crowded and its roads too congested now, imagine future generations: The nation's population could more than triple to 1 billion as early as 2100.
That's the eye-popping projection that urban and rural planners, gathered today for their annual meeting in Las Vegas, are hearing from a land-use expert."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/census/2008-04-28-onebillion_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

Sam,

I don't think anyone is arguing with that population is a problem. However, I think that just serves to make conservation even more of necessity.
 
That is said to be a value large enough to erase nearly all the global warming recorded over the past 100 years. It is reportedly the single fastest temperature change ever recorded â€" up or down.

Some scientists contend the cooling is the result of reduced solar activity â€" which they say is a larger driver of climate change than man-made greenhouse gases.
Last month the temp anomaly went right back up to where it had been, erasing that huge "cooling" (aka variation) seen the month before. Even when you start in with the highest point in 1998 the trend to the present has still been warming, although it's not statistically significant.

As for fluctuations in solar output causing the changes, look at the trends. 200 years ago there was a pretty strong correlation. Over the last 50 years none of the indexes have shown major trends up or down, yet temps have climbed. Over the last 20 years, not only do the observed temperature trends not correlate with changes in solar output, there's an anticorrelation. http://publishing.royalsociety.org/media/proceedings_a/rspa20071880.pdf
While the lack of correlation as of late doesn't mean there there is no relationship, what caused the shift from strong positive correlation to anticorrelation in the recent past? Also, in the stratosphere changes in solar output should cause warming while CO2 should cause cooling, which is what's actually happening. If you want to refute one hypothesis and propose another, it should at least make as much sense as the one you propose to throw out.

210308graph.jpg
First of all, on a time series that's autocorrelated like this a simple r-squared isn't valid. As an expert statistician I'm sure you were already aware of this though. Also, in trying to make the correlation the assumption is made that there's a simple linear relationship between the two parameters, something that has been known not to be true for about 100 years now. It's been known empirically for almost 150 years that CO2 traps the sun's heat and over 100 years ago it was determined that the amount of CO2 could affect the earth's temp. Both papers predate the ability to track atmospheric CO2 or determine any correlation between global temp and CO2. They were based on physics and laboratory experiments. Similarly we know empirically that photosynthesis drives calcification in corals, yet light and calcification correlate poorly. Why is that? Because there are other factors at work and not just a simple linear relationship. No climatologist in the last half century has argued that there is a simple relationship between CO2 and temperature. Expecting there to be a linear correlation and believing that the lack of one, especially over a short time period, is proof of no relationship demonstrates a huge oversimplification of what is being said.

What are the results of manmade global warming? Global catastrophe as never before seen is my understanding.
No one knows. That is where the scientific debate is at right now. I find it ironic that deniers of AGW continue to argue that the link between CO2 and warming is still up for debate when it was settled a decade or two ago, yet they pretend as though among those who accept AGW there is no debate about what will happen.

Today, and there is no reason why it will change, it takes more energy to collect and refine raw materials, manufacture the panels, and deliver to the site than the panel can produce in its lifetime.
This isn't even close to true. There have been several dozen, maybe even hundreds, of studies done on the life cycle energy balance and emissions from photovoltaics and even at below average irradiance and using 10 yr old technology (now outdated) they still produce more lifetime energy than it takes to produce the raw materials, transport and build the system, and then dispose of or recycle them at the end of their life. Their CO2 emissions per kwh for the the entire process is comparable to nuclear. Here's just one example from the literature:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=c3bd2073a11801e5c6be50ca18a7246e
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12431061#post12431061 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scottras
The solar industry in doubling every two years, the nuclear industry can't even raise funding without govt subsidies.
Your a fool if you think that ALL new energy infrastructure won't need government subsidies.
From one of your referenced articles:
The company insists it can do this at a cost of just 10 cents per kilowatt-hour, analogous to the price of electricity from burning natural gas in California if a cost was imposed for the emission of carbon dioxide
Who would impose this cost? Government? Sounds like a subsidy to me. :confused:
 
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