Good Alternate to LiveAquaria?

[jmm]

By dilute your tank to the bag water does NOT mean add tank water to the bag. Test the water in the bag and adjust the tank water by adding water to the TANK to dilute it if it is saltier than the water in the bag.

If it is less salty, don't worry about it.

 

[jayball]

I am going to say X2 to most of the people above.
Always match the qt to shipping salinity.

I keep RODI (a lot) and extra saline water (a little, never needed it) on hand to adjust the qt salinity. I test the bag water buy pulling a few drops with a pipett and and taping the bag shut without letting air in.

The fish I have recieved from LA also came in at 1.018, I have never recieved from divers den.

 

[Notorious]

I always thought dilute meant meant to "mix" more or less(I know that's not the technical definition). Wouldn't match be a better choice of words. In other words try and match the tank salinity to the bag salinity?

SO I just put in another order and I will drop the salinity a bit more before tomorrow. Hopefully everything goes well.

 

[ThRoewer]

As alluded to here, your problem is the salinity difference. LA ships at 1.017/18 and DD is 1.025. Taking a fish at 1.017 and putting into a system at 1.025 will kill it every time, even with drip acclimation. This magnitude jump in salinity needs to be done over the course of days. Going the other way is generally not a problem however.

On your next fish test the bag water then dilute your tank to the bag water salinity and you will have much better success. I believe, for increasing salinity, the rule of thumb is no more than 0.002 increase per day. Any more and the fish's osmo-regulatory system will not be able to adapt and it will dehydrate.

Absolute nonsense.
Fish handle salinity swings in that range easily.
Fish maintain a constant internal salinity of about 11ppt, external salinities above this level have no impact on the internal salinity.

I've treated many fish with hyposalinity and if you were right none of them would have survived it, yet but none was lost during the transfer in and out.

In my experience, the animals that can't handle salinity swings are saltwater shrimp.

I don't think salinity caused these fish deaths and it would be more helpful to look at other things and not focus on the least likely cause.

Ammonia and pH for themselves or in concert would be more likely causes.

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[NubbsJRN]

You stated that you add prime to the bag? I am not familiar with that product. However it raises a question for me.

Is prime like the other products that will turn toxic if there is copper in the water?

Does live aquaria run copper in their fish only side?


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[EMeyer]

Both bluezooaquatics and saltwaterfish have FAR lower prices and I've literally never received a DOA fish from either one. It blows my mind people still buy from LA/DD given the prices.

the fact that all these companies ship marine fish (35 ppt) at unnaturally low salinities that are only appropriate for estuarine fish is another rant, but in my experience they all do this so it doesnt affect my choice of supplier.

 

[JWClark]

Absolute nonsense.
Fish handle salinity swings in that range easily.
Fish maintain a constant internal salinity of about 11ppt, external salinities above this level have no impact on the internal salinity

In order to maintain internal salinity there are processes that keep ionic balance. A quick jump that does not allow for the system to catch up first can dehydrate a fish. A large drop in salinity is better tolerated as water is not being pulled from the system while the processes re-calibrate. A large jump, however, has water diffusing out of the fish faster than it is brought in until the ionic regulatory processes can re-set the equilibrium.

I've treated many fish with hyposalinity and if you were right none of them would have survived it, yet but none was lost during the transfer in and out.

Apples to oranges. This is a temporary exposure, not long term. A permanent, sudden, large increase certainly stresses the system.

OP, I meant dilute your system w/ RODI to bag salinity. Then you can slowly raise over the course of days. One less stressor to worry about. Don't take my word for it but such here on these topics. This has come up many times. I personally, would never dump a fish from 1.018 water into a 1.025 system even after a several hours acclimation.

 

[Buzz1329]

This. Sounds like that is the problem. LA (not DD) ships at about 1.017/8. Drip acclimation is not the way to go, and in any case the fish should have been quarantined.

Can you explain why drip acclimation is not the way to go?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Pooky Barr]

Buzz1392- there us an interesting read called Death in Bags in a sticky on New to Hobby thread. It explains that when you open the bag the fish is received in, there is an ammonia spike(can't remember what turns into ammonia when the air hits the bag). You have 30 minutes to get the fish transferred. With Drip acclimation I believe the fish is in a bag with increasing ammonia levels for longer than the 30 minutes. Sk8r explains it very well-he is very knowledgeable!

 

[Notorious]

OP, I meant dilute your system w/ RODI to bag salinity. Then you can slowly raise over the course of days. One less stressor to worry about. Don't take my word for it but such here on these topics. This has come up many times. I personally, would never dump a fish from 1.018 water into a 1.025 system even after a several hours acclimation.

Ah I see my apologies for the confusion that makes sense. However my last fish was acclimated to tank water that was at 1.021 and still passed. I think the recurring themes here is to make the acclimation process as short as possible which makes complete sense.

With my freshwater fish I never ever ever drip acclimated and never had a die off. I always believed that getting the fish out of the shipping bag as soon as possible was much more important. But I had been told that fish can die from too much of a change in salinity and had to be drip acclimated slowly. The more I read the more I find that not to be as true as I thought. I guess my "freshwater" method can be used for SW as well.

Anyway my new trigger comes today I will update you in a couple of hours on how things go. Thanks again for all the feedback guys.

 

[Notorious]

Buzz1392- there us an interesting read called Death in Bags in a sticky on New to Hobby thread. It explains that when you open the bag the fish is received in, there is an ammonia spike(can't remember what turns into ammonia when the air hits the bag). You have 30 minutes to get the fish transferred. With Drip acclimation I believe the fish is in a bag with increasing ammonia levels for longer than the 30 minutes. Sk8r explains it very well-he is very knowledgeable!

^This. I am not sure about the details but I do know that when you open a shipping bag the sudden rush of air from the outside causes the water to change chemically. I know it affects ammonia I am not sure it affects anything else. When I acclimated sensitive freshwater fish I always put a little seachem prime in the bag to detoxify ammonia while I acclimated. Not sure if SW fish keepers do the same thing.

 

[OllieNZ]

Buzz1392- there us an interesting read called Death in Bags in a sticky on New to Hobby thread. It explains that when you open the bag the fish is received in, there is an ammonia spike(can't remember what turns into ammonia when the air hits the bag). You have 30 minutes to get the fish transferred. With Drip acclimation I believe the fish is in a bag with increasing ammonia levels for longer than the 30 minutes. Sk8r explains it very well-he is very knowledgeable!

Sk8r is a she

 

[Pooky Barr]

My apologies to sk8r- I didn't pay attention!

 

[Notorious]

So my package came today! I decided to go with BlueZoo. I know many people have mixed feelings about them but my experience with them was AWESOME. The fish came in good condition and the water was not too cold. The salinity was same as LA around 1.018 but my tank being at 1.021 meant there was a smooth transition. I was overall very pleased.

I got a little rectangle trigger and he is doing awesome. As soon as he hit the water he started hunting the bristle worms in my tank. As I type he is at the front of the glass looking at me. What an awesome awesome fish! The colors on him is also amazing. Not washed out at all.

I should note a couple of things though. The first is this trigger is about twice the size of the picasso's I was getting at LA. So that may be a factor. Maybe baby triggers do not ship well, I am not sure. The other thing is BlueZoo used FedEx and LA uses UPS. Not sure if that makes a difference as well. Either way I am very happy with my purchase and my fish. Thank you all for your comments. Here is a few pictures of my new trigger(sorry they aren't that great!). His name is Archer after one of my favorite TV characters.

 

[ThRoewer]

Well, my last order from Blue Zoo was not so satisfying.

The jawfish pair I ordered came in correctly sexed but both were paper thin and the female didn't make it. The male may pull through, but now I have to see where I get a right sized female ...

The blustipe pipefish female I ordered turned out to be a male ...

I got the yasha goby female correctly sexed but she was also a bit on the skinny side.

The only fish that came in great were the 3 High fin gobies.

 

[JWClark]

Bluezoo is hit or miss but I'm not brave enough to try a fish from them. Have gotten a few frags and inverts in the past. Going from .018 to .021 is not too big a jump but I wouldn't try more. Think you have a better chance for success this time but just remember, increases in salinity DO matter, despite some opinions here. PM SK8R and ask if you want confirmation on the info I provided.

This is why I always search the archives for multiple confirmations on advice I seek and take everything with a grain of salt until proven otherwise.

 

[Buzz1329]

Buzz1392- there us an interesting read called Death in Bags in a sticky on New to Hobby thread. It explains that when you open the bag the fish is received in, there is an ammonia spike(can't remember what turns into ammonia when the air hits the bag). You have 30 minutes to get the fish transferred. With Drip acclimation I believe the fish is in a bag with increasing ammonia levels for longer than the 30 minutes. Sk8r explains it very well-he is very knowledgeable!

Thanks.

FWIW, I've ordered fish from LA, drip acclimated them to my 35 ppt tanks for an hour or more, and did not see any mortalities. But I appreciate your referencing the sticky and will check it out now.

Mike