Good bye to overpriced Red Hornets!!!

[justnmatt79]

Mucho, agreed 100%.

The problem lies in the lack of true knowledge about these zoas. People call them LE, or rare or whatever, but they could all just be different variations of the exact same thing. Has anyone ever seen two A. ocellaris that looked identical? Some will have wider white stripes, some will have wider black lines, but they are still the same species. So a true Red Hornet and a Vivid Red Hornet may look different, but they may be the same thing. As of now, no one is qualified to answer that question.

I have seen Red Hornets. They looked different than what I see pictures of. Same as Rastas and any other named polyps. Because there is variation in every animal in existence. These corals may color up, or brown out in different environments, and thus will look different. So someone will buy some named polyp, and then it will change and adapt to their system, and BAM! A new named polyp has come into existence.

With macro photography, and photoshop, we are seeing all sorts of corals that look absolutely nothing like that to the naked eye. And that, to me, is what counts.

I do not have any dealing with Vivid, but from everything I have heard, they are an upstanding and respectable store. I take them at their word that they were not trying to deceive.

What is in a name? These are not scientific names, and are thus completely unofficial. Vivid stated exactly how unscientific this specific zoanthid was named. "Hey, lets call it this..." Some store in Arkansas may have the exact same polyp dubbed some other wacky name. So now that everyone knows that, they should ignore the names and buy what they like.

I do not condemn someone for buying something I deem to be priced outrageously. It is their money. I do not condemn someone for selling at prices I deem outrageous. The market will judge them. But I do not agree with this debate of names. It is convoluted. If any store can get a zoa in and slap a name on it, then that should be enough evidence that the zoanthid naming craze is just that, crazy.

 

[VividAquariums]

Mucho, agreed 100%.
What is in a name? These are not scientific names, and are thus completely unofficial. Vivid stated exactly how unscientific this specific zoanthid was named. "Hey, lets call it this..." Some store in Arkansas may have the exact same polyp dubbed some other wacky name. So now that everyone knows that, they should ignore the names and buy what they like.

This is completely true. When we have to name zoos, we try to name what already exists or is commonly agreed upon. But if there is no common name, we just make it up. Whoever is adding the product will say, well, these colors remind me of this particular thing, so here's what I'll call it. And then we move on to the next one. And then if enough people like the color and pattern, the name gets repeated and discussed, and then it will be commonly agreed that this particular color and pattern is called "xyz". There is no official source. It's an odd phenomenon. All vendors do it.

 

[vwtanker]

I'm sick of names, I work at a LFS and we have some amazing zoas. They are all different colors and none have names. Large full colonies with 50+ polyps. They don't sell because people come in with the macro lens pictures from the online suppliers in mind. They have no idea that the exact same $25 per polyp zoa is sitting there for $1 per polyp or less. Its absurd to fight over names and superficial differences. Can't we just sell and trade cool polyps without the hype. These animals can morph depending on lighting, unless your doing genetic testing how can you definitively say two similar polyps aren't the same.

Sorry Justnmatt79 didn't read your post, but maybe it needs repeating anyway. I think we agree completely.

I'm gonna start coming up with crazy names at my store, maybe people will start paying big bucks for small frags.

 

[vwtanker]

This is completely true. When we have to name zoos, we try to name what already exists or is commonly agreed upon. But if there is no common name, we just make it up. Whoever is adding the product will say, well, these colors remind me of this particular thing, so here's what I'll call it. And then we move on to the next one. And then if enough people like the color and pattern, the name gets repeated and discussed, and then it will be commonly agreed that this particular color and pattern is called "xyz". There is no official source. It's an odd phenomenon. All vendors do it.

Your right, that's how it is done. And if you don't make up a name they are completely ignored. It drives me crazy! :hmm5:

 

[Akwarius]

This is completely true. When we have to name zoos, we try to name what already exists or is commonly agreed upon. But if there is no common name, we just make it up. Whoever is adding the product will say, well, these colors remind me of this particular thing, so here's what I'll call it. And then we move on to the next one. And then if enough people like the color and pattern, the name gets repeated and discussed, and then it will be commonly agreed that this particular color and pattern is called "xyz". There is no official source. It's an odd phenomenon. All vendors do it.

Not exactly, Vivid. Vendors such as Exotic Frags aquaculture named zoanthids that are lineaged from reputable sources. Jeremy grows them out to insure that they are hardy and retain their color. The named polyps at EF are a little more expensive, but you are getting the real named polyp with the best color. Other propogators can only dream of living up to this standard. And other vendors, forget about it. With every vendor, excluding EF and hobbyist propogators, I would say BUYER BEWARE!

 

[CrazyZoa]

Just because a polyp is not named on Zoa ID does not mean it doesn't exsist....I think people forget that. Zoa ID is nothing just some guys website with pretty pictures. I get a kick out of seeing people get snappy at others when selling something that can't be found on Zoa ID.

 

[VividAquariums]

Not exactly, Vivid. Vendors such as Exotic Frags aquaculture named zoanthids that are lineaged from reputable sources. Jeremy grows them out to insure that they are hardy and retain their color. The named polyps at EF are a little more expensive, but you are getting the real named polyp with the best color. Other propogators can only dream of living up to this standard. And other vendors, forget about it. With every vendor, excluding EF and hobbyist propogators, I would say BUYER BEWARE!

You're right. We do not track or guarantee lineage unless it's the last person that sold to us such as ORA. We try our best with names. But we do grow quality frags and prove it with our 15 day money-back guarantee.

 

[CrazyZoa]

Well Vivid all I have to say is that you have alot of great looking polyps regardless of the name or stupid lineage( really lineage on a zoa...makes me laugh).

 

[fsn77]

I've never bought anything from Vivid Aquariums, but after reading through this thread, I feel encouraged to do so. Kudos to Vivid Aquariums for acknowledging that their naming of this zoa could cause confusion, and for their consideration to potentially change the name of this particular variety they are selling.

I'm inclinded to think the name came about as they stated, based on having met several other vendors in person over the last few years. Yes, these vendors are businesses out to make money, but I think too many people have wrongly grouped them into some category within their minds as them being large corporations with secret closed door board meetings and extensive personnel to plot the next money making scheme that'll lead them to profit dollar heaven. Consequently, I've yet to meet a coral vendor that was larger than a couple handfuls of people doing what they can in a generally trustworthy fashion, but perhaps my perception is skewed because I've only encountered a small number of them.

As stated by at least one previous poster, the vast majority of people that see my corals have no idea what a zoa is, how much they sell for, or even that a polyp is a polyp (frequently they are referred to as "flowers" by people viewing my tanks, and corals in general are called "plants"). I even have to explain to some people that there's living things in the tanks other than the fish.

In the end, this is a hobby for most of us, not a business... Let's please not forget it. Most hobbyists will never make enough money from this hobby for it to ever be self-sustaining for them. Every hobby has different levels of participation and dollars invested -- cars and firearms stand out in my mind as two others that are relatively common and have quite a range as far as pricing and outcome are concerned. If the hobby stresses you out, infuriates you, or otherwise causes you to lose sleep, perhaps it's time to just move on to another aspect of this hobby or entirely to something else.

The pricing will only get better once the supply begins to exceed the demand and/or a larger number of hobbyists try making less money off of their fellow hobbyists than they currently do. My general opinion is that it's the hobbyists that keep the prices high and encourage deception via photo-doctoring, misnaming, and such by continuing to pay top dollar prices for corals being grown by other hobbyists. Perhaps this is a poor example, but if used equipment that's for sale has a general pricing guideline of 1/3 - 1/2 of retail when we buy it from other hobbyists and could conceivably stop working at any time despite proper maintenance and care, why are we as hobbyists so inclined to pay what amounts to "retail" pricing for coral frags from other hobbyists when those frags could just as easily die off at any time despite what is perceived to be proper tank maintenance and care?

As for the picture posts getting tons of views and replies, I'm guilty of it. I like to see pix and like to tell people when I think they have something cool. If it encourages them to grow out those polyps and spread them around the hobby, great. Hopefully, they'll sell them inexpensively, but that's simply my hope and is by no means a given. Perhaps I should post more in threads where people have issues and even discuss situations I've worked through, but I don't for whatever reason. Call me lazy or whatever. I apologize if that makes me less of a hobbyist, however, it is what it is. I can commit to providing more meaty content, or at least to not diluting the excellent content that is already here with short 1 - 5 word posts about how cool a coral is. I don't have a problem with that at all. I'd still like to see pix of people's latest finds though.

 

[VividAquariums]

Thanks!

 

[Sr5_Reef]

Not exactly, Vivid. Vendors such as Exotic Frags aquaculture named zoanthids that are lineaged from reputable sources. Jeremy grows them out to insure that they are hardy and retain their color. The named polyps at EF are a little more expensive, but you are getting the real named polyp with the best color. Other propogators can only dream of living up to this standard. And other vendors, forget about it. With every vendor, excluding EF and hobbyist propogators, I would say BUYER BEWARE!

Its funny that you mention "not exactly" but as i was looking at Exoticfrags site.... I can name many on that site that i have never heard of before, or seen on anyothers site. So they make up names as well. WHO DOESNT? If you get a new polyp in or a morph in your tank you name it. and come on, most retail stores that are worth it do grow high end corals and if your a hobbyist you know whats what. You do not need a "pink slip" saying it came from John Crybaby in wisconsin or some crap.

I dont think any store should be looked down upon for naming anything. Its how this hobby works. I know these are all opinions and thats fine. But big ups to Vivid for stepping in and trying to fix a problem that was stirred up from nothing. I can see why MuchoReef says some of the old hobbyist have left, i mean look how many people want to point the finger and blame people based off assumptions. WHAAAAAAAACK!

-Francisco

 

[Akwarius]

Its funny that you mention "not exactly" but as i was looking at Exoticfrags site.... I can name many on that site that i have never heard of before, or seen on anyothers site. So they make up names as well. WHO DOESNT? If you get a new polyp in or a morph in your tank you name it. and come on, most retail stores that are worth it do grow high end corals and if your a hobbyist you know whats what. You do not need a "pink slip" saying it came from John Crybaby in wisconsin or some crap.

I dont think any store should be looked down upon for naming anything. Its how this hobby works. I know these are all opinions and thats fine. But big ups to Vivid for stepping in and trying to fix a problem that was stirred up from nothing. I can see why MuchoReef says some of the old hobbyist have left, i mean look how many people want to point the finger and blame people based off assumptions. WHAAAAAAAACK!

-Francisco

Just because you've never heard of those color strains, does not mean that other collectors haven't. The majority of the corals on the Exotic Frags site are commonly traded and sold between REAL zoanthid collectors. These are not freshly plucked out of the ocean. They are tried and true, the colors do not change, and they are generally reliable to keep. Zoanthid collectors are willing to pay this kind of premium for the very best. Secondly, no one is arguing about changing the name of a ten dollar polyp. Let's not lose track of the original purpose of this thread. Are there cheaper alternatives to RH? Yes. Do they have the same coloration? No. Are there people willing to pay a premium for the original? Yes. Are there hobbyists who are jealous and angry because they can't afford the very nicest corals? Yes!

 

[Friday Night]

Just because you've never heard of those color strains, does not mean that other collectors haven't. The majority of the corals on the Exotic Frags site are commonly traded and sold between REAL zoanthid collectors. These are not freshly plucked out of the ocean. They are tried and true, the colors do not change, and they are generally reliable to keep. Zoanthid collectors are willing to pay this kind of premium for the very best. Secondly, no one is arguing about changing the name of a ten dollar polyp. Let's not lose track of the original purpose of this thread. Are there cheaper alternatives to RH? Yes. Do they have the same coloration? No. Are there people willing to pay a premium for the original? Yes. Are there hobbyists who are jealous and angry because they can't afford the very nicest corals? Yes!

+1 Ziiiing
:beer:

 

[aquaph8]

Just because you've never heard of those color strains, does not mean that other collectors haven't. The majority of the corals on the Exotic Frags site are commonly traded and sold between REAL zoanthid collectors. These are not freshly plucked out of the ocean. They are tried and true, the colors do not change, and they are generally reliable to keep. Zoanthid collectors are willing to pay this kind of premium for the very best. Secondly, no one is arguing about changing the name of a ten dollar polyp. Let's not lose track of the original purpose of this thread. Are there cheaper alternatives to RH? Yes. Do they have the same coloration? No. Are there people willing to pay a premium for the original? Yes. Are there hobbyists who are jealous and angry because they can't afford the very nicest corals? Yes!

Thats what I'm saying. Ever heard any SPS keepers complain about names?

 

[toddmh]

I think vivid stingers is a great name for these..I buy from vivid all the time,they are the only west coast retailer I will trust to ship,polyps,sps and lps to the east coast..I even bought a RBTA from them..Top notch..

BTW I see these vivid stingers are selling faster than they can put them up,that is the ultimate judge of quality..

 

[russ13]

Just because you've never heard of those color strains, does not mean that other collectors haven't. The majority of the corals on the Exotic Frags site are commonly traded and sold between REAL zoanthid collectors. These are not freshly plucked out of the ocean. They are tried and true, the colors do not change, and they are generally reliable to keep. Zoanthid collectors are willing to pay this kind of premium for the very best. Secondly, no one is arguing about changing the name of a ten dollar polyp. Let's not lose track of the original purpose of this thread. Are there cheaper alternatives to RH? Yes. Do they have the same coloration? No. Are there people willing to pay a premium for the original? Yes. Are there hobbyists who are jealous and angry because they can't afford the very nicest corals? Yes!

so do you think this will not effect the price of the red hornets??

 

[therman]

If they were selling these as "true red hornets" I could see how people would be upset. They are not. For anyone familiar with the michigan reef forum a similar phenomenon happened recently regarding "rastas" which were sold as "true rastas" but were very much not. In this case Vivid is straightforward, and nobody is being swindled.

The only people I can see being upset about this are those that dropped major coin on "true red hornets" and see their profit margins dropping fast. Buying the latest outrageously priced fad polyp is akin to gambling in a game where the chips can melt overnight for no reason. Occasionally players can get a huge pile of chips for almost nothing and suddenly your currency isn't worth as much as you thought it was.

Get over it and enjoy looking at your corals instead of just selling them.

 

[Friday Night]

so do you think this will not effect the price of the red hornets??

Even if vivd "stingers" didnt come out.. the price of the "true red hornets" was going to drop reguardless... being the fact that there are more in circulation as well as times are tough and people need money. And there are people that want to spread the zoa and give everyone a chance to own.... witch i like to see....

 

[Akwarius]

No one was upset when the prices of purple hornets came down. It simply meant that more people could afford to enjoy them. And those who still can't dish out $30-50 per polyp, there's always African blue hornets.

 

[Akwarius]

Even if vivd "stingers" didnt come out.. the price of the "true red hornets" was going to drop reguardless... being the fact that there are more in circulation as well as times are tough and people need money. And there are people that want to spread the zoa and give everyone a chance to own.... witch i like to see....

+1. Red hornets are becoming old news. Everyone's waiting to see what the next trendy zoa will be. Utter Chaos was being hyped as the next best thing, but apparently it doesn't look as good in person.