Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) Breeding Log!

[mwp]

OK, so this was the end all be all BIGGEST SPAWN EVER...last night was just a sneak preview of what was to come! This is MORE EGGS than I've EVER seen BEFORE! I don't have the camera ready to take pictures (battery pack is dead) so I can't do a count; I'm going to estimate 700-1000 eggs.

I've slowly added 1 gallon of day old (but otherwise freshly mixed) saltwater to the larval tank. I'm slowly acclimating the eggs to the larval tank water, a few pipette's worth at a time. This is my chance between last night's spawn and tonight's to have 50+ larvae to work with if things go right...no screwin' around, I'm going to TAKE IT and put all these eggs into the larval tank in just a few more minutes. I don't know if the formalin is still active, or if it even helped, but it obviously didn't hurt, so I'm going to dose ONE DROP to bring the concentration up with the 1 new gallon of saltwater added this evening.

After this spawn, any subsequent spawns will be microscoped, given away, or attempted in other incubation vessels...I can live with the 24 hour leaway when it comes to larval age; the 4-10 day spawn I had going earlier was too much to accurately track progress. I think the best route to go will be to try to pick good spawns (which BTW we had tons of sticky eggs again and AIR BUBBLES, which haven't been showing up lately...it seems to be something that occurs only if the eggs are left floating in the parental tank for a while)...I'll be giving these guys the absolute best care through next Friday, at which point they get handed over to Renee for the weekend

Keep watching!

Matt

 

[EXOTICS OWNER]

do you sell you tank raised fish?

 

[mwp]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7837598#post7837598 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by EXOTICS OWNER
do you sell you tank raised fish?

Only if you'll take 3 day old mandarins

In all seriousness, so far I haven't gotten these past 10-12 days, and usually it's more like 3-4! If I ever get them raised up, you can bet I'll have to sell them...no room for dozens of mandarins in the long run.

Matt

 

[apistomaster]

Hi Matt, I'm a fly fishing bum when not raising fish(discus,plecos &many others. No one would believe my story of watching my mandarins spawn, or flame angels in a 125 reef 89-91. Seattle then. Never tried to raise any. If yor in the neighborhood going to spend a week on the Lochsa River, 3-1/2 hours away, catch&releasing westslope cutts(similar to sister stream Kelly Creek) I just joined the forum and happened on your success.

 

[mwp]

Apistomaster, WELCOME to REEF CENTRAL! I'm actually planning a trip around Labor Day to the Gunnison to chase Kokanees...Renee's brother is out in Portland! Of course, our fall Salmon & Steelhead season is JUST AROUND THE CORNER - man I'm going to be BUSY!

Ever raised up the Imperial Zebra's? I remember them being expensive, then dropping in price dramatically, and yet now they're retailing on DFS for $250 again? Heck, I think I'm in the wrong market with trying to do mandarins!

Some updates on the good 'ole larvae! Last night's spawn so far has only hatched 2 new ones - around 4:00 I upped the air feed again and will leave it there for a few hours. It seems that everything from yesterday's hatch is still around though. I added in approximately 200 ML each of fresh (non-refridgerated) T-Iso, Tetraselmis and Nannochloropsis (600 ML of live phyto in total). I harvested appproximately 300 ML from each SS Strain Rotifer Culture; these are currently being selcon enriched and will be added later this evening.

On the Red Scooter Blenny front; the female I was hoping to bring home was really no larger than the one I already have (who's having some issues lately, starting to get SKINNY again despite feeding well on frozen enriched foods). SO, I'm on the hunt for a "large" RSB female...so far haven't found one and online vendors are totally jerks about inquiries for sexed fish, even when we're dealing with something as EASY to sex as an RSB!

Hoping for the best.

Matt

 

[mwp]

By 6:30 the rotifers had completely cleared their water of 5 drops of selcon, so into the larval tank they went! Still looks like a poor hatch on last night's HUGE spawn which is a disappointment and can't readily be explained....

MP

 

[mwp]

2:00 AM, turned out the larval light (yes, I placed 1 18" flourescent over the tank this afternoon). At first I couldn't find the older larvae (still easily distinguisable from the ones a day younger). Turns out they were all on the bottom...kinda pogo-sticking their way on and off. I've seen this happen before...sometimes it looks like they're feeding and other times it looks like they're dying.

So...without even doing a water test, I added 7 drops of Prime to the 6 gallons+ of water that's in there...in the odd event that any ammonia/nitrite is building up I wanted to nip it in the bud. If nothing's wrong then it won't really hurt anyways.

I recently came across an scientific article (can't remember the source) the suggested that 16 hours light to 8 hours darkness provided the best larval survival in clownfish; not sure if that translates to mandarins but it may be a good starting point.

The rotifers are definitely blooming, I just hope they're getting EATEN. Heck, the phytoplankton seems to have been GROWING...the tank wasn't as green this afternoon as it is now!

We'll see...I don't have any type of accurate larval count right now, but I can say there are at least 4 at 2 days and 2 at 1 day. IF I in fact had a big loss of the larvae between 24 and 48 hours, my only guess at this point would be that they start feeding earlier than we thought, perhaps I missed their first feeding by only a few hours (remember, up until this afternoon the tank was pretty much sterile).

Well, not much else to write at this point...more in the morning perhaps!

Matt

 

[Kathy55g]

That kind of behaviour could be an indication that there is too much light. If they are pogo sticking face down.... That 's the way it is with clownfish, anyway...

 

[apistomaster]

Matt,
Just a thought but some ingredients in dechlorinators havve aa known adverse effect on the bone formation of fry. This is referred to FW fish fry but it is plausible that larval marine fish could be even more sensitive to its effects. I'm sorry that I can't cite the specific reference but it is something to consider.
I have had mandarins and flame angels breed in a 125 reef from 1989-91.
Larry
Larry

 

[apistomaster]

Matt,
Just a thought but some ingredients in dechlorinators havve aa known adverse effect on the bone formation of fry. This is referred to FW fish fry but it is plausible that larval marine fish could be even more sensitive to its effects. I'm sorry that I can't cite the specific reference but it is something to consider.
I have had mandarins and flame angels breed in a 125 reef from 1989-91.
Larry
Larry

 

[apistomaster]

Matt,
I just remembered that it is the EDTA used in virtually all dechlor preparations to sequester heavy metals that is the implicated culprit in interfering with normal bone developement in fry, not Sodium hyplochlorite per se. Using a biological approach to control ammoniom levels would be best, eg. maintaining phytoplankton levels in the larval tank.

 

[mwp]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7843123#post7843123 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kathy55g
That kind of behaviour could be an indication that there is too much light. If they are pogo sticking face down.... That 's the way it is with clownfish, anyway...

Good to know, only in this case they started "pogosticking" once the light's were off...(was observing with the flashlight).

Matt

 

[Kathy55g]

Guess that's not it,,,;-)

 

[TitoTee]

Matt

Have you tried mixing salt with RO water for the eggs to hatch in? I'm thinking that your next step in your project is to use water that:

Does not have any metals, minerals or anything else that may be found in tap water.
Does not need to be treated with a dechlorinator.

By using RO water to mix your salt with - that would be the closest thing to pure sea water other than getting water from the ocean. I wonder if this would make a diffrence in your hatch rate and fry survival.

 

[apistomaster]

I take it that controlling the nitrogen cycle does'nt merit a solution. R/O water is a start with no EDTA to harm normal development. I may have missed what the test result have been. One test is worth a thousand words.

 

[mwp]

Plenty of phytoplankton in the tank; the drops of Prime were added as a prophalatic simply since I did not to a water test to check first (call it late-night syndrome...the last thing I need to do at 2:00 AM is the 30 minute ammonia test etc..) Plenty of phyto in the water so I fully admit it's not likely that ammonia/nitrite are a problem, but better to be safe than sorry as it's been an issue in the past.

Keep in mind that the MAIN reason I have Prime around is for dechlorination of BLEACHED water for sterility purposes. I would *think* a lot of breeders use some sort of dechlorination and aren't looking at that as a source of problems. Yes, RO is definitely something to consider, but there isn't the room here to set up, so I'd actually be better off purchasing distilled water to mix with...that's about as pure as you can get.

The latest update, there are at least 3-4 larvae left from the first spawn that went into the larval tank, and at least one from yesterday's hatch...that's what I could find. The water is still VERY green, the SS-Rotifer population continues to grow by leaps and bounds. So far this is going pretty "typical" in respects to all the earlier spawns. Since the rotifers are growing and feeding on living phyto, I'm not really able to comfortably add in MORE enriched rotifers...there's plenty around already and in theory there should be both EHA and DHA available in good proportions based on the mix of phyto that went into the tank.

Another worthwhile observation is that at least 2 larvae are definitely orienting themselves to the surface at this point; when I turned of the 15 watt bulb, the left the surface...within moments of turning it back on they went BACK to the surface...aka. the appears to be behaving in a positively-phototrophic manner.

FWIW,

Matt

 

[mwp]

Ok, can't really say if this was a smart move or not - while harvesting my phyto cultures this evening I found I had a wee bit extra Tetraselmis, so about another 200 ML of Tetraselmis went into the larval tank just now.

FWIW,

Matt

 

[mwp]

So one of the main things here that we're all wondering is WHAT do the babies feed on during those crucial first few days? Well, tonight I sat down with a 72 hour old larvae under the microscope and shot a BUNCH of pictures at 60X and 200X. If I had to guess, I'd say that the larvae are not feeding yet, or if they are, it's something I can't pick up under this microscope, OR I missing something (all the more reason to post the pics and have other more experienced folks look at them).

This last picture, in the upper righthand corner, is an SS-Strain rotifer (for an idea of scale). You can't really easily see the WHOLE rotifer, more just the contents of it's gut.

FWIW,

Matt

 

[mwp]

As always, when things are "slow" in the early moring before I go to bed, I tend to surf and see if I can find any more info on breeding mandarins! As usual, I've come up with a few interesting links:

http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Synchiropus_splendidus.html - the big thing here was the first reference I've come across for the average mandarin lifespan - in the wild considered to be 10-15 years?! SWEET!

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cach...eeding+mandarinfish&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=14 - this Google Cached copy of a website page no longer online reveals a plan for Pearl River Fishery Research Institute in China to propagate mandarins.

--- came back to add one more ----

http://www.worldfishcenter.org/naga/23-2/aq3.pdf - not directly mandarin related, but the study of Photoperiod on Clownfish larvae I mentioned a few posts back!


Matt

 

[mwp]

So it's a slow work day and I'm IN the office, so I've spent my time trying to find any posts by RSMan regarding his successful efforts with Mandarins. I went through EVERY SINGLE post of his (all 88 pages worth) and realized there isn't a thread here on the effort - RSMAN, if you ever DID post a thread detailing your efforts, do you happen to have a URL?

I DID find something like 15 other threads that are all relevent to breeding mandarins to one degree or another; I figured I might as well post them all up here....it's some good reading material (as if a 27 page post isn't enough to read already). Some may be duplicates!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=314187

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=365638

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=391018

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=429265

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=430985

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=475690

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=505271

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=529299

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=534824

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=554865

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=595108

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=610073

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=622898 - LEGO STIRRER THREAD, FINALLY FOUND IT AGAIN! - there are links in this thread to at least 3 other threads that I may have posted links to before or not...anyways, this is a good one to check out (if I haven't posted it before).

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=630400

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=641800

Well, that's about it for now...noticing that other folks are indeed getting huge hatches (i.e. I believe in one of those threads RSMan cited a nearly 100% hatch rate) I think I may again have to do more work on the incubation side. Meanwhile, there should be a few larvae left at home when I get back tonight...maybe some more microscope pictures to see what the heck they're feeding on?

MP