Green Mandarin (Synchiropus splendidus) Breeding Log!

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Matt,
That was a good comparison of the size differences between the genus. That was what I was trying to get you to consider. Finding the right first foods for mandarins would be hard for anyone even if you set up shop where they are being caught. Finding right size and kind of organisms they feed on would be very hard for anyone.
It may be that the time is not here yet when mandarins can be raised in captivity inland.
 
Matt,
That was a good comparison of the size differences between the genus. That was what I was trying to get you to consider. Finding the right first foods for mandarins would be hard for anyone even if you set up shop where they are being caught. Finding right size and kind of organisms they feed on would be very hard for anyone.
It may be that the time is not here yet when mandarins can be raised in captivity inland.
 
NAYSAYERS! ;) I'll get it down yet! Hate Rate is still the issue...having 1% hatch on average is NOT the way to start a project like this!

Matt
 
Well, the "experiment" failed miserably with a hatch of ONE! I DID get a few pictures considering the first time I only got video...so here's a mandarin larvae at about 18 hours post spawn...a couple hours post hatch.

18_1_ruler.jpg


18_2_ruler.jpg


This lone guy went in with the one remaining older larvae and all the GBG larvae...at least he has a chance!

Matt
 
Matt
I've got an idea.

This would involve a 20 gallon high tank and some kind of device that can safely rock the tank back and forth in a gentle manner.

The tank would be filled to about 7" of water.

This would simulate oceanic movement without using air bubbles or propellers.
This would create a more stable environment since it's a larger body of water.
This would keep the water constantly aerated.

Once the eggs are in they would stay in constant motion even throughout the hatching process. Then, larval will remain in motion also. When it is time to introduce food - that will also remain in motion. I figure - it's what probably happens in the ocean - so why not simulate it in a tank.
 
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Tito, that's a killer idea in many respects, the big problem though would be contact with the sides of the tank...there's no 'tank sides' in the ocean, and contact with the sides of the tank is what's cited as ONE of the problems in larval incubation. Have you sever seen those oil/water/sand motion art things? That'd be a dead on match to what you're talking about, just on a smaller scale.

I'm definitely going to reconsider the whole approach, right down to parental diet. Definitely going to try to get them to accept some high-quality pellets as they're a nutrient dense food source; can't hurt and I'll always have to give the enriched frozen shrimp-type foods for the seahorses.

Also, I have at least 1 more medication to try; didin't realize it earlier but Maracyn's active ingredient is Erythromycin..one of the meds suggested earlier on...so that's going on the "to do" list.

Matt
 
Well, depends on where I incubate. The larval tank is currently hovering between 79 and 80 F. The parental tank has been running around 78.5 F usually, and for some of my earlier attempts I've had them more closely matched (less than 1 degree difference). I've tried aclimating vs. dumping eggs and can't really say I've had any real difference in success between those two. Room temp is set at 72F to keep the tanks cool enough, so if I've just set something out, that's where they've been, but all those attempts have for the most part been with water from the brodstock tank, so the cooldown is gradual.

FWIW,

Matt
 
Hi Matt,
I know you will try erythromycin to try to improve hatch/survival rate but it will not work. At the very best There will be no change.
Larry
 
Larry, why do you say that?

There are several key items in getting the mandarin eggs to successfully hatch.

1. Viable Eggs - after microscope examination it appears that most all eggs are at first viable and fertilized.

2. Quality Eggs - up in the air; parental nutrition could be at fault, afterall, I also have problems with my Bangaii's and their eggs being held to term, and the one attempt at artificial incubation they did not last.

3. Incubation Method - have tried a BUNCH

3a - Circulation - some methods have circulation, other's don't. Most all attempts with NOTHING circulating water have been failures. While no hard evidence is available, passive observation suggests that large amounts of water circulation may be helpful or at the very least tolerated.

3b - Side Contact - nothing I've tried really guarantees NO side contact (but I still have an idea on this)

3c. - Air Contact - I've tried MANY methods with air-based circulation as well as a few that don't (propeller, pump-driven stirrer); this actually seems to be a non-issue despite other folk's observations.

3d. - keeping them off the bottom - actually this appears to be the result of an egg that DIES, specifically they start sinking around the same time that other ones start hatching.

4. Temperature - what I can say is that all the good hatches seem to have occured at temps closer to the parental tank.

5. Incubation Water Quality - overall, what I can say is that freshly mixed and sterilized water both have provided better hatch rates than older water; heck look at the last 3 spawns...the one that went into a clean and recently sterlized aquarium had a fair hatch of 15-20 larvae; a hatch 3 times the size added to the same tank via the same methods 1 day later only hatched 2; it's either egg quality issues or water quality (from a sterility standpoint) at play.

6. Egg Infection - now, yes, I've tried Methelyne Blue, Formalin, and the two in combination and they don't seem to have helped, although some experienced culturists have suggested that profalactic medication of the eggs may help keep them going. I haven't exhausted the possibilities here yet. IT also seems that getting to the eggs QUICKER and harvesting them from the main tank more promptly doesn't HURT and may help.

7 - Water Volume - I don't know why, but it seems like ALL larger hatches have occured either directly in the 10 gallon larval tank OR in setups that flow water THROUGH an incubation device. It seems that a larger volume of water is beneficial to hatch rates...it's not a temperature stability thing, because other methods that utilize a smaller volume of water simply placed within a larger tank for temperature control have not exhibited the same type of success.

Matt
 
Hi Matt,
I was the one who suggested you look into egg disinfectants.
My pessimistic comment pertained to the use of erythromycin only.
It has never been that useful on fish diseases as most bacteria are little effected by it. In fact none of the available antibiotics are particularly effective anymore due to 40-50 years of over use.
I think you are on the right track having fresh filtered sw flow through. I believe mandarin larvae will prove to be extremely selective feeders and the dietary organism(s) remain as of yet unidentified but it will not be anything we can obtain yet. Some bugs that occur in the Indo-Pacific will probably turn out to be required.
You have a fairly constant supply of eggs and a lot of dedication ; two prerquisites for discovering their requirements.
Larry
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7862737#post7862737 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by apistomaster
Hi Matt,
I was the one who suggested you look into egg disinfectants.
My pessimistic comment pertained to the use of erythromycin only.
It has never been that useful on fish diseases as most bacteria are little effected by it. In fact none of the available antibiotics are particularly effective anymore due to 40-50 years of over use.
Click to expand...

AHA, now I see where you're coming from on the erythromycin.

I forgot one other prerequisite for hatching mandarins - a good pair of fish. That's why female #2 is sitting, waiting in the wings, trying to get fattened up :) I could just have 2 siblings for example, collected from the same location etc...maybe I'll keep banging my head against the wall until female #2 gets in on the act.

Matt
 
Matt,
When I had mandarin spawnings in a 125 gal reef I had a trio and both females would often spawn at the same time taking turns.
 
I was hoping to have the same kind of setup, granted in the smaller tank, but it still looks like female #1 and #2 aren't going to get along. Ultimately I'm going to have to release #2 from the net breeder, but for now she's STILL on the skinny side for my tastes...granted I was thinking about releasing her today anyways to give her access to the live rock. Would just hate to see her shredded though.

Matt
 
Ya know what? Larry's comments spurred me to "just do it"...I netted out #2, she looked fatter than I though she was, so she's now in the main tank. Female #1 spotted her, displayed laterally and flaired her fins and so far that's been it...looking good so far.

Matt
 
Hi Matt

I have been reading your thread and have you tried lowering your sg to 1.018 i have done this with my clownfish and i seem to get a better hatch rate. i think it might be worth a try(or have you allready tried this)

Best of luck
Kenny
 
Kenny, I have not tried this yet. The problem is that the broodstock is in a reef with corals etc...lowering the broodstock to 1.018 or so isn't an option. I may be able to bring them down a touch, to something like 1.022/1.023, but 1.018 will likely start the loss of inverts, macro algaes etc...

Now, the EGGS may be able to go down to 1.018 if harvested quickly but more than likely that would just cause them to burst. I'd like to rule out most everything else before going with a lower SG.

Matt
 
I know you´re stubborn enough to quit:D but I wanted to support you with encouragement words:)
Besides your hard determination,I like the way you approach problems,in a rational scientific way,pondering all possible factors.
Most people in the hobby move according to hunches,"feeling"what the answer to a problem should be.Some successful old style hobbyists happened to have the right hunches or were lucky.And yet their methods were not repeatable by other people.I´m meaning mostly FW breeders here.In the SW field ,W.Mai was one of these talented breeders.In all his older reports his recipe was a "green broth"containing algae,rots and pods and perhaps also ciliates. FW people use to think that raising marine larvae it´s a matter of finding the right "bug"or "salt water infusoria"to crack them.Unfortunately it´s not that simple.SW larvae (other than clowns) are still difficult to very difficult to raise at a hobbyist level.Even if they feed well.There are some critical aspects besides nutrition,let´s call them environmental in a very wide sense.
And pelagic spawners are much worse.In fact mandarins were the only ones to be raised (always at a hobbyist level).You kinda skipped steps in your ascending run ;)
I´m sure you´ll make it,it was done and you have all said capabilities to win the game.First a good hatch,then some few making it to MMP.While this feels as such a huge accomplishment,you must no stop there,buy struggle until you can raise decent numbers of fry every time.Only then the job is done and you can look for something more challenging (if you survive and Rene didn´t throw your tanks to the garbage bin).:lol:

I liked your pics and vids very much.It´s amazing what can be done with a cheap toy!.I know how difficult is to focus it,see my Centropyge pics,I took them with the Intel Play scope!

Your thread made me wish to try mandarins again.In the past I had a pair making spawning ascents at dusk in a 55g reef tank,though I couldn´t see any actual spawning.My subsequent efforts to keep them in non reef tanks failed,getting them to feed was the big issue.Now I have a mid size pair more willing to eat than adults.They take adult live bs well,even in mid water,which seems unnatural to them.I´m expecting them to take frozen mysis soon.I wish I can raise them and breed them next year:rolleyes:
Good luck and keep on the good job!
 
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