Grounding Probe or not?

[mixed_reefer]

I know for sure that when i stick my hand in the aquarium and i have a small cut on a finger i feel electricity, if im barefoot standing on the floor. With rubber shoes on it does not happen and only when there is a cut in my skin. Should i be using a grounding probe?

 

[psteeleb]

find the short first and fix it

I am a strong believer in the grounding probe. there is another active post on the subject that had several discussions on it today

 

[mixed_reefer]

I have searched and searched. I honestly cant find it and i know that sounds stupid. Im starting to think there has to be saltcreep on a sumplight or something im not seeing. I also cant find the discussion on probes... Can you link me?

 

[RonD]

check your heaters.. they can function but be cracked and shock you. I just punted all my glass ones for titanium. I have a probe but think that if something was wrong I could miss it because of the prbe masking the problem.

 

[mixed_reefer]

Im am concerned for my animals health in this scenario. I dont understand electricity like i probably should, i am reading but some of gets confusing. I know some current leaks into my tank, but i dont know where. Its not like it knocks me down, just a tingle if i have a cut and im barefoot. From reading im causing a ground and thats why i feel it. but what about when my hand is not in the tank? Does it affect my fish and corals even though they are sitting in a ungrounded tank? Or is it only once the ground is made that it causes stress.
I have unplugged all 13 pumps and 3 heaters, it still happens. I cant feel it all the time, i only notice it when im cut on my fingers.

 

[silverwolf72]

Use a ground probe with a GFCI if there is any current leaking into your tank it will trip the GFCI.

 

[samtheman]

The GFCI does not need or utilize a ground probe to trip so its presence is not necessary. Use a GFCI and forget about the ground probe. There is no data suggesting it will help the health of your fish, and a good possibility it will be a hazzard to your safety.

 

[Roy G. Biv]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11980730#post11980730 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mixed_reefer
I have searched and searched. I honestly cant find it and i know that sounds stupid. Im starting to think there has to be saltcreep on a sumplight or something im not seeing. I also cant find the discussion on probes... Can you link me?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1333128

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The GFCI does not need or utilize a ground probe to trip so its presence is not necessary. Use a GFCI and forget about the ground probe. There is no data suggesting it will help the health of your fish, and a good possibility it will be a hazzard to your safety.

I strongly disagree.

With a ground probe and a GFCI, there is a path to ground, so any exposed electrical wires will leak some current into the water and out the ground probe, triggering the GFCI.

Without a ground probe and with a GFCI, there is often no path to ground, so the GFCI will not trip until there is a path to ground.

The first thing to provide that path may be your body. I do not want to test the expectation that the GFCI will trip in time to protect me. I'd rather it trip as soon as there is the potential for a problem of that sort, and a ground probe allows that.

Further, if there are exposed wires in the water (like a broken heater or powerhead), they may release copper or heavy metals and not actually trip a GFCI since there is no path to ground. With a ground probe, such an event trips a GFCI immediately, alerting you to the problem earlier than if you had no such probe.


and a good possibility it will be a hazzard to your safety.[?B]

What scenario involving both a ground probe and a GFCI endangers your safety relative to a GFCI alone?

 

[mixed_reefer]

Im just worried about my animals... I am reading more on this and i see people saying there will be a bit of current in most tanks. Sounds like no one really knows if the current is a bad thing or not as far as animal health goes. I read where they had run wires into the ocean connected to re-bar type dome structures and turned on the juice. They were mounting acro colonies to the re-bar in an attempt to regrow the reef, something about the new corals will grow on the re-bar due to the electrical charge attracting the corals spawn somehow. My point is, how is that much different from having some current in your tank? Obviously its grounded where as without a probe, my tank is not. I also recently got a Yellow Tang and after seeing HLLE pics i bought all the selcon and vitachem and alge, and they get new life spectrum once daily already plus i feed frozen krill, plankton, cyclops, squid, marine cuisine .... you get the point. Now that i have the tang, im sweating the current because of HLLE and the possibility of it being a factor. I will be completely honest, i have been leaking this current for some time, i only feel it if i have a cut and im wondering what if anything i need to do about it now that the tang is in there. The tank houses a lot of fish and sps corals and has been running for about a year now.

 

[dragonladylea]

Thank you Randy for pointing that out, I was just about to say it (in not such fluent terms) I had my husband thank God put a grounding probe in and a GFCI three days before my son called me to say "Mom, I think I blew a fuse - I knocked your light in the tank" even though he knows NOT to do it, he said it was really just reflex to grab the light out of the tank. I truely credit my sons life with the grounding probe and GFCI. For about $15-$20 why take chances when you don't have to.

 

[mixed_reefer]

I knocked a light into my sump and just like your son i reached in to grab it. It put me on the floor confused. I agree in that situation i really would have been better off. I guess there is really only one way to set my mind at ease over this small very tiny charge that seems to be in my aquarium. Get the gfci and probe and if its tripping then ill hunt down the cause and replace it. My worry is im going to get the probe and gfci and its going to trip lol then im stuck hunting down equipment that im going to have to replace if i have the money to do so or not... but if ya cant sleep cause that cute little tangs head might be rotting, what else are you going to do.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Im just worried about my animals... I am reading more on this and i see people saying there will be a bit of current in most tanks. Sounds like no one really knows if the current is a bad thing or not as far as animal health goes.

FWIW, I agree. I have no idea whether grounding probes help the health of animals in the tank aside from emergency situations (like a broken heater).

 

[psteeleb]

look at it this way

there are several people that have had experience with HLLE (including myself) that say the grounding probe helps. I have not heard of one case that is backed up with anything more then speculation that says it hurts the fish

Again I'll say

first off - if you have stray voltage, find the source and fix it. Turn everything off and use a process of elimination, including cords.

second; GFI and ground probe, I don't know where people are coming from thinking GFCI works without the probe - the GFI senses a ground and interrupt the circuit. Yes, it works when it grounds through you, I don't want to experience that again. I use GFCI and ground probes for my protection and the protection of my family and friends then equipment etc. No argument or discussion on this, or the first point.

third - it is my personal experience that with rotating equipment in the tank you get some generation of micro currents and the ground probe seems to help here. My short experience with HLLE started with the introduction of pumps inside the tank and ended with the introduction of a ground probe. Stray voltage was never felt or detected. This is the point that is argued but it seems there is some proof (maybe coincidence) that it helps and only speculation that it hurts.

 

[mixed_reefer]

I just spent the last hour and twenty mins unplugging everything one by one, seems like no matter what i am still getting shocked if i touch the bare concrete floor with my bare feet and stick a hangnail in first.
If i stand on the covered floor i dont get any buzz at all with bare feet and a hangnail in first. If i stick another finger in first, then the hangnail finger, no buzz. Im extremely confused. I guess with a probe and gfci i will be able to pinpoint what equipment is bad. Right now if ya asked me i would say it is all junk. I must have more than one piece bad is all i can figure.

 

[psteeleb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11982195#post11982195 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mixed_reefer
I just spent the last hour and twenty mins unplugging everything one by one, seems like no matter what i am still getting shocked if i touch the bare concrete floor with my bare feet and stick a hangnail in first.
If i stand on the covered floor i dont get any buzz at all with bare feet and a hangnail in first. If i stick another finger in first, then the hangnail finger, no buzz. Im extremely confused. I guess with a probe and gfci i will be able to pinpoint what equipment is bad. Right now if ya asked me i would say it is all junk. I must have more than one piece bad is all i can figure.

sounds like your doing it backwards

unplug everything first - validate the stray voltage is gone, if not this is where you could have salt creep to an extension cord or something and you will need to chasse that down

when everything is unplugged and there is no stray voltage - then start plugging stuff back in

the short does not have to be directly to an item, salt creep can go up plastic and touch a metal light frame or something that also has some salt creep in the socket - so it can be from tank to salt creep to frame to a socket, extension cord, etc.

 

[mixed_reefer]

Will the gfci trip if the product is bad if i have a ground probe? What amp gfci is suggested? I have went through the wiring several times, before i just did it again. Im telling you i must have more than one device with an issue because no single device being unplugged stops the shock. I cant find it, its not that im silly or not listening. If i unplug the whole shabang im not going to get shocked, regardless of saltcreep because there will be no juice to the tank at all. I need a surefire way to go through each device and test it one by one, the tingle is so minimal at times i cant even tell if im getting zapped or not. How can i test them one by one?


I am going to pull the plug on the whole system right now, just to verify that my OCRD is not getting the better of me.

 

[mixed_reefer]

No current with the system completely unplugged. I have such a wiring mess, this is going to be a major pain but i guess its a well overdue project. Something is zapping me, i think its a combination of things but i need a way to be sure, something other than sticking my finger in the water with a cut on it. Any suggestions?

 

[psteeleb]

sounds like you probably do have more then one source. but taking it up from zero to all on works better to find them.

another hard one to locate is if you have a power strip mounted to wood. The wood could have salt creep that is creating a minimal circuit between tht tank and the power strip.

I want to add to my other statement as there are some people that have claimed that ground probes made their fish go nuts when a heater turned on etc. In these cases there is a short, and stray voltage in the system that flows to ground when turned on. These should always be watched for and fixed. Ignoring the problem of a short and thinking just because it's contained in the tank (with out a ground probe) is just asking for more problems IMO.

 

[psteeleb]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11982343#post11982343 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mixed_reefer
No current with the system completely unplugged. I have such a wiring mess, this is going to be a major pain but i guess its a well overdue project. Something is zapping me, i think its a combination of things but i need a way to be sure, something other than sticking my finger in the water with a cut on it. Any suggestions?

do you have access to one of those small (radio shack type) volt oms meters?