hi, first tiem i have ever heard about grounding probes, im starting upa 90 gallon with a sump system, do i need a probe, if so where do you put it. Im guessign underneath the gravel. If anyone could give me a quick into to what and how they are used that would be awesome, thanks alot
Grounding probes
- Thread starter joemama65
- Start date
wizzbane15
Member
Gotta have one. they are relatively inexpensive and can be placed anywhere. I'm not sure if I would put it under the gravel though.
All the probe does is provide stray electrical current a grounded source out of the aquarium. I have one in my main display and a second in my sump. since our hobby is predicated on electrical devices replicating nature, inevitably there is some stray current that leaks out of our components into the system. this becomes more of an issue as pump and such age and gradually leak more current. the stray electrical current causes stress on all tank inhabitans and stress = problems.
Considering a grounding probe is only 10-15 bucks, I would consider it an essential piece of the system.
All the probe does is provide stray electrical current a grounded source out of the aquarium. I have one in my main display and a second in my sump. since our hobby is predicated on electrical devices replicating nature, inevitably there is some stray current that leaks out of our components into the system. this becomes more of an issue as pump and such age and gradually leak more current. the stray electrical current causes stress on all tank inhabitans and stress = problems.
Considering a grounding probe is only 10-15 bucks, I would consider it an essential piece of the system.
reefergeorge
New member
You don't need a GP. I have never used one, and don't plan on it.
IMO the only thing you need is a couple of GFCIs for your safety.
IMO the only thing you need is a couple of GFCIs for your safety.
Actuarial Goat
New member
I'm tagging along here. Was considering a GP, but have read mixed reviews around here. The main thing everyone says is just make sure you use a GFCI. That's where I get confused.....I thought that's what the 3rd prong in the wall socket was?? If the current exceeds some level, the circuit breaker in the garage trips. Is there something special about the power strip behind the tank I should be using?
Aquarist007
New member
I have noticed a lot of questions on GFI's, ground probes, etc. I’d like to take a moment and give my opinion on them.
First let me say that I am a licensed IBEW electrician with more than ten years in the trade. It is in my opinion that ground probes are not needed. In fact I think they are somewhat dangerous. It is a path to ground in an otherwise isolated system. This increases the risk of electrocution.
Let's back-up a little. The reason people get electrocuted is because they become part of the pathway electricity uses to get to ground. Your aquarium is for the most part isolated from any grounding means unless you have something metal attached to it. Say like a metal water pipe, or a ground probe. This gives you that pathway.
Here's an example:
Say I was putting a new power head in my tank. It's plugged in and my left hand is holding it (outside the tank). Now my right hand is resting on the top of the tank lip and my fingers are in the water. Let's also say the power head is defective and it is not completely watertight and in one way or the other I am in contact with the voltage. Now I don't notice this or feel anything because I'm standing on a dry floor with shoes on and my tank system is isolated. I might notice a slight buzz in my hand but that's all.
Now let's say I have a ground probe. Same sinerio, but I'm dead.
Here's why.
The defective power head is in my left hand, this is my source voltage. My right hand in the water. The water has a ground probe in it and, naturally, is attached to my house ground. The power travels from the power head to my hand, across my body to my other hand in the water, through the minerals in the water to the probe and finally where it wants to be, ground. Oh by the way on the currents way through my body it cooks me from the inside out. Still like the probe idea?
Will the breaker trip?
Eventually, but the risk of permanent damage has already happened. A circuit breaker is designed to protect the wiring and devices in the circuit. Not people.
Would a GFCI have tripped?
In most cases yes, but NOT having a grounded aquarium system is your best bet.
That's why I don't like ground probes.
Yes I took some liberties with that example, but you can see how easily it can happen. And why it's so important to keep your system isolated.
Next
The 3rd prong on a outlet. That is not a GFCI that is the "ground" plug for the circuit. It caries any fault current from a device safely to the buildings grounding system.
If you have noticed most all aquarium devices do not have a ground prong on the plug. This is because they are "double insulated". This is a fancy way of saying that it's made from plastic and there is no risk, short of coming into direct contact with current carrying components, of there being a fault. So no ground is needed.
Basically be smart. Keep the floor dry and wear shoes when working on your system. If you have a device that's "leaking" current it's defective and you need to get rid of it. Use GFCI's!!!! That's why they were invented, to save lives.
I hope this has helped shed some light on the GP theory. I hope no one takes it the wrong way. This was just my opinion based on the facts.
First let me say that I am a licensed IBEW electrician with more than ten years in the trade. It is in my opinion that ground probes are not needed. In fact I think they are somewhat dangerous. It is a path to ground in an otherwise isolated system. This increases the risk of electrocution.
Let's back-up a little. The reason people get electrocuted is because they become part of the pathway electricity uses to get to ground. Your aquarium is for the most part isolated from any grounding means unless you have something metal attached to it. Say like a metal water pipe, or a ground probe. This gives you that pathway.
Here's an example:
Say I was putting a new power head in my tank. It's plugged in and my left hand is holding it (outside the tank). Now my right hand is resting on the top of the tank lip and my fingers are in the water. Let's also say the power head is defective and it is not completely watertight and in one way or the other I am in contact with the voltage. Now I don't notice this or feel anything because I'm standing on a dry floor with shoes on and my tank system is isolated. I might notice a slight buzz in my hand but that's all.
Now let's say I have a ground probe. Same sinerio, but I'm dead.
Here's why.
The defective power head is in my left hand, this is my source voltage. My right hand in the water. The water has a ground probe in it and, naturally, is attached to my house ground. The power travels from the power head to my hand, across my body to my other hand in the water, through the minerals in the water to the probe and finally where it wants to be, ground. Oh by the way on the currents way through my body it cooks me from the inside out. Still like the probe idea?
Will the breaker trip?
Eventually, but the risk of permanent damage has already happened. A circuit breaker is designed to protect the wiring and devices in the circuit. Not people.
Would a GFCI have tripped?
In most cases yes, but NOT having a grounded aquarium system is your best bet.
That's why I don't like ground probes.
Yes I took some liberties with that example, but you can see how easily it can happen. And why it's so important to keep your system isolated.
Next
The 3rd prong on a outlet. That is not a GFCI that is the "ground" plug for the circuit. It caries any fault current from a device safely to the buildings grounding system.
If you have noticed most all aquarium devices do not have a ground prong on the plug. This is because they are "double insulated". This is a fancy way of saying that it's made from plastic and there is no risk, short of coming into direct contact with current carrying components, of there being a fault. So no ground is needed.
Basically be smart. Keep the floor dry and wear shoes when working on your system. If you have a device that's "leaking" current it's defective and you need to get rid of it. Use GFCI's!!!! That's why they were invented, to save lives.
I hope this has helped shed some light on the GP theory. I hope no one takes it the wrong way. This was just my opinion based on the facts.
Aquarist007
New member
excellent post 58merc.
I believe grounding probes for tanks were not devised for protecting people--rather fish and inverts from stray voltage of very low current.
Somehow it seems to have become a safety thing for humans--and by your detailed post---lets hope this misconception is clarified.
stricknine
New member
I STRONGLY disagree with mercs post (although I cant disagree with his rationale). Heres my take;
- think of your tank (if not grounded) as a big piece of copper wire. If you have an electrical device with poor insulation or a fault of some kind you risk energizing the whole tank, and all metal or conductive materials in contact with the water. Now you have created a giant LIVE wire so to speak in the middle of your home. There is no GFCI fault, or no breaker trip because there is no fault. There is lust a live wire hanging around open ended. Reaching in to the tank is just like grabbing a live wire, lets hope you are not grounded (and it doesnt take much-sweaty feet, touching something).***NOW if your tank is grounded, any voltage to the water will cause a fault to a breaker and/or a GFI because it is a dead short between live and ground, or current lost to ground.
- As per Canadian and National electrical code (CEC in Canada, NEC in US), all metal in an electrical system must be grounded because it is conductive, and this rule should pass on to water as it is the same concept. In addition, in electrical code books there is a TON of grounding requirements for swimming pools: all water, metal, and current carrying material MUST be grounded within a certain radius of the pool SO if there is a fault it is a tripped circuit and not a live wire.
- If you have faulty equipment and dont have the tank grounded, you will never know. Ground the tank and the GFI will pop within milliseconds of the live wire hitting the surface.
- If the tank is not grounded, it can become the live wire under the right circumstances.
- A GFCI (ground fault circuit interuptor) may not trip without a ground because there is no fault to ground-circuit will not be interrupted-hence the name.
My .02.
Also, what is everyone using as a ground probe? Metal does not fare well in SW, nor does copper.
- think of your tank (if not grounded) as a big piece of copper wire. If you have an electrical device with poor insulation or a fault of some kind you risk energizing the whole tank, and all metal or conductive materials in contact with the water. Now you have created a giant LIVE wire so to speak in the middle of your home. There is no GFCI fault, or no breaker trip because there is no fault. There is lust a live wire hanging around open ended. Reaching in to the tank is just like grabbing a live wire, lets hope you are not grounded (and it doesnt take much-sweaty feet, touching something).***NOW if your tank is grounded, any voltage to the water will cause a fault to a breaker and/or a GFI because it is a dead short between live and ground, or current lost to ground.
- As per Canadian and National electrical code (CEC in Canada, NEC in US), all metal in an electrical system must be grounded because it is conductive, and this rule should pass on to water as it is the same concept. In addition, in electrical code books there is a TON of grounding requirements for swimming pools: all water, metal, and current carrying material MUST be grounded within a certain radius of the pool SO if there is a fault it is a tripped circuit and not a live wire.
- If you have faulty equipment and dont have the tank grounded, you will never know. Ground the tank and the GFI will pop within milliseconds of the live wire hitting the surface.
- If the tank is not grounded, it can become the live wire under the right circumstances.
- A GFCI (ground fault circuit interuptor) may not trip without a ground because there is no fault to ground-circuit will not be interrupted-hence the name.
My .02.
Also, what is everyone using as a ground probe? Metal does not fare well in SW, nor does copper.
Whys
New member
Most aquarium grounding probes are made of titanium.
Very informative, Merc and Stricknine both, you are equally valid in your points. Here is a summary, if I may...
If you are NOT a part of the circuit, it is better to have a grounding probe. If you ARE part of the circuit, it is better NOT to have a grounding probe. Hmmm...
Seems to me a grounding probe WITH GFCI is the best bet. There is the potential of being part of the circuit, but so what? The grounding probe will keep your fish safe while the GFCI keeps YOU safe. Any brief zap you might experience will serve as an important indicator of a problem and as a real incentive to fix it.
It's amazing what 2¢ can buy.
Very informative, Merc and Stricknine both, you are equally valid in your points. Here is a summary, if I may...
If you are NOT a part of the circuit, it is better to have a grounding probe. If you ARE part of the circuit, it is better NOT to have a grounding probe. Hmmm...
Seems to me a grounding probe WITH GFCI is the best bet. There is the potential of being part of the circuit, but so what? The grounding probe will keep your fish safe while the GFCI keeps YOU safe. Any brief zap you might experience will serve as an important indicator of a problem and as a real incentive to fix it.
It's amazing what 2¢ can buy.
reefergeorge
New member
titanium.
edit- posted at same time.
Every time GPs come up we always have the same arguments. The only thing that makes sense to me, and has been posted before. Is to put the GP on a switch, and switch it on before you reach in the tank. That way the fish won't be bothered by any constant current, and it something is faulty, it will ground out before you reach in.
edit- posted at same time.
Every time GPs come up we always have the same arguments. The only thing that makes sense to me, and has been posted before. Is to put the GP on a switch, and switch it on before you reach in the tank. That way the fish won't be bothered by any constant current, and it something is faulty, it will ground out before you reach in.
Ground probes are titanium, no corrosion worries.
I've read the arguments for and against the probes. I wish I had a picture of my tank after it was electrocuted. You could put that pic in your wallet, go behind the fish market, open the dumpster and take a good whiff. Then look at the pic. That was my experience when I walked in the front door a couple years ago.
A plastic heater (visitherm stealth) came apart while submerged in my tank. The exposed current killed everything, and there was quite a thunderstorm in the back of the tank as the energized, exposed wires were submerged. This put lots of lots of copper in the tank. You should have seen the blue mess back there.
Result: all livestock dead. Live rock and sand contaminated and unusable for a reef. Toss all of it and start over.
This tank was on a GFCI. But it didn't matter, because there was no path to ground. Current went in the tank through the hot heater wire, and came out of the tank through the neutral heater wire. Had I had a ground probe, the GFCI would have immediately tripped, hopefully saving much of the tank. Incidental exposure of non-energized copper conductors for a few hr until I found the problem would have never caused this damage.
Now let's talk about the scenario where you are holding an energized powerhead and the tank becomes path to ground. THAT'S what the GFCI is for. And I cannot understand how this is functionally any different than using a hairdryer and touching a faucet, (or any other kitchen or bath appliance) in the vicinity of a grounded structure, be it a stove, pipe, or body of water.
There has been some discussion that probes can introduce stray voltage (due to ground differential or some other concept- again I'm not an engineer). It's been suggested that this voltage can cause some long term stress on animals, lateral line disease, etc.
But I can tell you from first hand experience there is nothing more stressful on the animals than inserting an aquarium into a 120v circuit. And a Ground Probe (or other path to ground) + GFCI is the only solution that will catch a failed heater or other submerged electrical device.
It's only a matter of time before the UL (or CPSC) wakes up and sees that submerging 120v ungrounded devices into a corrosive solution for years at at time WILL lead to failure. It doesn't matter how many layers of insulation there are. One day every device that goes in our tanks will have a 3 prong plug, a built in gfci, and some type of grounding system (titanium plate, etc.). After an electrocution or two it will happen.
OK I'm done
I've read the arguments for and against the probes. I wish I had a picture of my tank after it was electrocuted. You could put that pic in your wallet, go behind the fish market, open the dumpster and take a good whiff. Then look at the pic. That was my experience when I walked in the front door a couple years ago.
A plastic heater (visitherm stealth) came apart while submerged in my tank. The exposed current killed everything, and there was quite a thunderstorm in the back of the tank as the energized, exposed wires were submerged. This put lots of lots of copper in the tank. You should have seen the blue mess back there.
Result: all livestock dead. Live rock and sand contaminated and unusable for a reef. Toss all of it and start over.
This tank was on a GFCI. But it didn't matter, because there was no path to ground. Current went in the tank through the hot heater wire, and came out of the tank through the neutral heater wire. Had I had a ground probe, the GFCI would have immediately tripped, hopefully saving much of the tank. Incidental exposure of non-energized copper conductors for a few hr until I found the problem would have never caused this damage.
Now let's talk about the scenario where you are holding an energized powerhead and the tank becomes path to ground. THAT'S what the GFCI is for. And I cannot understand how this is functionally any different than using a hairdryer and touching a faucet, (or any other kitchen or bath appliance) in the vicinity of a grounded structure, be it a stove, pipe, or body of water.
There has been some discussion that probes can introduce stray voltage (due to ground differential or some other concept- again I'm not an engineer). It's been suggested that this voltage can cause some long term stress on animals, lateral line disease, etc.
But I can tell you from first hand experience there is nothing more stressful on the animals than inserting an aquarium into a 120v circuit. And a Ground Probe (or other path to ground) + GFCI is the only solution that will catch a failed heater or other submerged electrical device.
It's only a matter of time before the UL (or CPSC) wakes up and sees that submerging 120v ungrounded devices into a corrosive solution for years at at time WILL lead to failure. It doesn't matter how many layers of insulation there are. One day every device that goes in our tanks will have a 3 prong plug, a built in gfci, and some type of grounding system (titanium plate, etc.). After an electrocution or two it will happen.
OK I'm done
Whys
New member
Oh, one question...
Just how much current can actually be carried by a grounding probe? I've noticed the wire is a much smaller gage than the grounding line used from my electrical box to my metal pipes.
Along that same line of reasoning, why not place a weak fuse directly inline with the probe? Why do they not actually make probes this way? Just curious.
Just how much current can actually be carried by a grounding probe? I've noticed the wire is a much smaller gage than the grounding line used from my electrical box to my metal pipes.
Along that same line of reasoning, why not place a weak fuse directly inline with the probe? Why do they not actually make probes this way? Just curious.
wow i thought i would get like one response, and to see over 15 pretty sweet. I like both of arguments for and against, i have a gfci, but i think just to be safe ill throw a GP in anyways. Its $15 bucks so if it works great if not, oh well i cant supersize my next trip at McDonalds. One thing that i didnt get answered though is where the best place to put it would be?
Oh and for those who dont know GFCI stands for Ground fault circuit interupter. thanks everyone.2
Oh and for those who dont know GFCI stands for Ground fault circuit interupter. thanks everyone.2
Votage is realatively stagnant, it stays local.It is potential current. Amperage is current which is voltage with a path to ground.Current is moving electrons which will hurt you and your fish.
A grounding probe without a gfci can make things worse by converting any stray voltage in the tank into amperage(current).Depending on what you are touching at the time such as a light hood with a short and wether or not you provide a path to ground it may make things better or worse for you.
Most tanks will have some stray voltage in the neighborhood of 2 to 3 volts from water movement, pumps on and off etc.A probe will make this voltage into current and run it through your fish and corals which may be harmful even in small amounts over a prolonged period of time. A probe will also convert a large voltage leak to current and run it through the tank . You can test for stray voltage with a multimeter from and auto parts store ( about $20). Gfci plug in devices are available for about $10 and should definitely be used with or without a probe.Gfcis detect minute amounts of lost current (variations in/and out) and essential pull the plug almost instantly when such a situation occurs.
A grounding probe without a gfci can make things worse by converting any stray voltage in the tank into amperage(current).Depending on what you are touching at the time such as a light hood with a short and wether or not you provide a path to ground it may make things better or worse for you.
Most tanks will have some stray voltage in the neighborhood of 2 to 3 volts from water movement, pumps on and off etc.A probe will make this voltage into current and run it through your fish and corals which may be harmful even in small amounts over a prolonged period of time. A probe will also convert a large voltage leak to current and run it through the tank . You can test for stray voltage with a multimeter from and auto parts store ( about $20). Gfci plug in devices are available for about $10 and should definitely be used with or without a probe.Gfcis detect minute amounts of lost current (variations in/and out) and essential pull the plug almost instantly when such a situation occurs.
