Guess the Phosphate level

Love that statement. If it were not for anecdotal observation, testing and reporting in the reef hobby, I would still have a tank full of redbugs, bryopsis, and blue clove polyps. And thank Gawd I never bought into that garbage marine product line from Marc Weiss.

IIRC the red bug treatment with interceptor was more than anecdote. Dustin did some thoughtful experimental work there. The gate is still open for bryopsis - raising pH or using Tech M works for some, but not for others and no one really knows why either way. Not sure about bcp or what the proposed problem or solution is.

Now, if we all expected experimental evidence of product claims, we never would have been in the Mark Weiss kind of problem. :D
 
I was talking about vodka dosing. No gfo. Though it still comes in a bottle :)
So as others said as well we need more experiments to prove or disprove the theories, and limitations.
Can anyone propose some experiments we might be able to run in a home or small lab settings ?

Sure! Set up two (more is better, but two will work) as identically as possible. Add the thing to be tested to one and not the other. Test and see if it does what it is supposed to do, and see what the control tank does without the thing being added.

This would be great on about a million things, including and not limited to:
Carbon dosing for nitrate (some numbers might remove some of the guess work)
Carbon dosing on phosphate
ATS on nitrate
ATS on phosphate
Ammino acids on coral color (harder because defining color is harder)
All the zeo products individually and together
LED vs MH on growth (need more than 2 tanks I think)
Any coral food
Any supplement
Bryposis controls, both chemical and biological
Etc,

See the Inland Reef link above for some practical ideas. I have been toying with the idea of a 'Reef Busters' organization, but that seems like a lot of work that I don't necessarily have time for, but it would be great. It would also be great to harness the power of MASNA and reef clubs to get this kind of stuff done.
 
galleon made a nice experiment, with low filtration and ... super powerful lighting, but corals never coloured up !

TIA.

Actually they were coloring up great, and then real life intruded and he had more important things to deal with.
 
I think Thales has thrown out a point here that is one of the biggest mistakes by most reefers in post #240. When something goes wrong we start throwing all kinds of changes at our reefs so we have absolutley NO idea what anything did or didn't do. In my work life I have customers who say "I had this happen so I did this,this and that and now my equipment doesn't perfrom". By the time they get to me I have no idea what the original problem was so I break it back down to basics, a starting point, and often that solves it. My point being if we keep written records and make 1 change and WAIT a specific period of time we can gather something akin to qualitative data, i.e. I did this and got this change. Then our anecdotal would be slightly better and have some repeatability. With so many changes we most often have no idea what resulted in any change we may see because we're already making another change. It would not be scientific but it does produce actual data that can be used(making 1 change at a time) to advance our reefs, maybe not the hobby as a whole, but our own reefs for sure. For instance I have adopted new lighting based on JROOVERS lighting and have been doing this for a month, growth has increased and colors are better but I screwed up because I added a couple of gorgonians and as a result I added food specifically to feed them. So is my coral improvement a result of the lighting change or of the increased feeding or both. I can't say because I changed two things at once. If you wan't to debate this nutrient issue then make only a single change and see what you get.
 
I don't think the experiments matter. I think we'll always have anecdote and correlation regarding nitrates, phosphates, etc. and their levels as related to coral health and color. However, as has been pointed out over and over in this thread, each tank is different and will/may react differently to whatever change or adjustment may be made to have a desired effect, even if the "science" tells you what should happen.

What we do have are strong correlations and trends though. There are enough people on here to define these trends and correlations with a certain amount of confidence. Is it proof, no, but it is the best we have in my opinion and the best we'll get. I would definitely say that Thales' tank and his phosphate levels are approaching two standard deviations from the mean. Based on everything I've seen and read, a low to undetectable level of phosphate and nitrate are the norm for SPS tanks. Those with 0 readings of both can have a colourful tank and may be on the opposite side of the trend line, but maybe they've packed their tank with SPS that thrive in ULNS, and on the flip side the person with detectable phosphate and nitrate have millis, caps, and stags that seem to enjoy or tolerate higher nutrient levels. If I were to advise someone else, I would suggest they follow the mean (low nutrients including phosphate and nitrate), as that is most likely where their tank will be - but maybe it will fall away from the mean.

Away from the mean the art part comes in. Careful observation, and I mean almost studious observation, is often overlooked in reefkeeping. Compared to the science, art plays a large role in this discussion and I think is the reason why we'll never have scientific answers for the reefkeeper (compared to a scientific study in a lab with a control and one independent variable as Thales has suggested). The "Art" is to watch your tank closely and decide what, if any, adjustments are to me made. I think every experienced reefkeeper on here will tell you that after a while, they don't really need to test too often for their parameters - they can tell through observation that things are out of skew. The art is also to then take a course of action that you feel is best warranted - maybe everyone is telling you need to do Plan A on this forum, but really you think Plan B is the best path, and therefore that is the one you should go down even if conventional wisdom and other reefers are telling you otherwise.

One or two tweaks in a reef tank, a complex "closed" system that reaches its own biological equilibrium, is akin to chaos' theory butterfly effect, where one small change can cause a chain reaction of events and trying to understand the what and how becomes almost impossible. So everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
 
The problem that I see with that is for every strong correlation and trend we have 10 batches of BS. Thoughtful experimentation could rid us of some of that and save lives and money.
 
IIRC the red bug treatment with interceptor was more than anecdote. Dustin did some thoughtful experimental work there. The gate is still open for bryopsis - raising pH or using Tech M works for some, but not for others and no one really knows why either way. Not sure about bcp or what the proposed problem or solution is.

Now, if we all expected experimental evidence of product claims, we never would have been in the Mark Weiss kind of problem. :D

Dustin did at a higher level than most Reefers would, but in the end you have people trying different dosages of a product for a purpose other than its intended use in a non-lab setting and reporting their results. Higher level anecdotal observation for sure, but still anecdotal observation.

Never heard of raising pH to get rid of bryopsis either. Tech M worked for me and has for hundreds of others. Definitely may not have worked for everyone, and may not be the only way, but it is a way. Jack Kent knows what it is in the Tech M that kills the bryopsis, but won't tell anyone. Also, the Kent Brand is no longer owned by him, so who knows where the raw materials for the product are coming from any more. It very well may not be as effective against bryopsis today as it may have been several years ago.

Fluke Tabs kill blue clove polyps, and a couple other soft coral types as well. Does not hurt SPS. BCP can reach plague proportions in certain tanks, and using fluke tabs is a last resort effort, but it will remove them from your system.
 
Well, this is a fun thread. Think for yourself, who knew... :)
Allmost said:
another aspect that hasnt been covered, is the management of detritus.

how do you manage that in your system thales ?
At home, I don't. I have a 180 gallon sump under the house that acts as an abyssal plane where detritus settles. I used to remove it from time to time, but what a pain, so I stopped and didn't see much of a difference in over all tank yummyness.
Out of curiosity, do you have any observations on what is happening in your sump since you stopped removing detritus?
 
Dustin did at a higher level than most Reefers would, but in the end you have people trying different dosages of a product for a purpose other than its intended use in a non-lab setting and reporting their results. Higher level anecdotal observation for sure, but still anecdotal observation.

Sure, but the more thoughtful the experiment is the the more compelling the reslut. Anecdote, that can certainly be helpful, is a double edged sword - powerful but dangerous. We forget/ignore all the horror that has come to our hobby from anecdote is something we do at our peril.

Never heard of raising pH to get rid of bryopsis either.

Some swear by it. Haven't tried it myself.

Tech M worked for me and has for hundreds of others. Definitely may not have worked for everyone, and may not be the only way, but it is a way.

Careful here not to cherry pic your data. It has also not worked for hundreds of others.

Jack Kent knows what it is in the Tech M that kills the bryopsis, but won't tell anyone. Also, the Kent Brand is no longer owned by him, so who knows where the raw materials for the product are coming from any more. It very well may not be as effective against bryopsis today as it may have been several years ago.

And it may not have been the Kent Tech M at all - correlation does not equal causation.

Fluke Tabs kill blue clove polyps, and a couple other soft coral types as well. Does not hurt SPS. BCP can reach plague proportions in certain tanks, and using fluke tabs is a last resort effort, but it will remove them from your system.

Thanks. Never seen BCP become a problem. I have heard it said but never seen it or known anyone it has happened to.
 
Well, this is a fun thread. Think for yourself, who knew... :)

Out of curiosity, do you have any observations on what is happening in your sump since you stopped removing detritus?

Not really. I don't look at it too much. Any idea of what kind of observation you are curious about? I can go down and report back. :D
 
The problem that I see with that is for every strong correlation and trend we have 10 batches of BS. Thoughtful experimentation could rid us of some of that and save lives and money.

I think you should call yourself the "Overly Skeptical Reefer" lol. Correlation and trends are backed by statistical info, not strong enough to prove causation, but to establish connection. I think there is generally enough information shared between reefers to establish best practices or most likely paths to success, but I digress...

Saving lives, it is really coming to that?
 
I think you should call yourself the "Overly Skeptical Reefer" lol.

I would rather be called that than called a band wagon jumper. lol.

Correlation and trends are backed by statistical info, not strong enough to prove causation, but to establish connection. I think there is generally enough information shared between reefers to establish best practices or most likely paths to success, but I digress...

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I would love to see the statistical info anyone has compiled on correlation and trends in reefkeeping, but I don't think anyone has actually put that together for just RC, never mind the wider reekeeping world.

Thinking there is enough information often is supported by cherry picking, making such 'best practices' inherently suspect. Just look at treatment of ich thread to see shared information coming up with anything but best practices.

Please note that I have said over and over again that anecdote is powerful and useful and almost all we have to go on.

Saving lives, it is really coming to that?

Of course - hasn't it always been about that? And money too. Are you not interested in saving animals lives or saving money? Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying.
 
I would love to see the statistical info anyone has compiled on correlation and trends in reefkeeping, but I don't think anyone has actually put that together for just RC, never mind the wider reekeeping world.

No, I don't think anyone has done that. But it would be interesting to see. As it relates to SPS, Darryl put together a pretty solid list of TOTMs that had many things similar enough to point towards a trend. Can you definitively claim a correlation or a positive trend? No, but that is where one would likely start, as the information that is there strongly suggests that a trend or correlation exists.

Thinking there is enough information often is supported by cherry picking, making such 'best practices' inherently suspect. Just look at treatment of ich thread to see shared information coming up with anything but best practices.

Just like thinking there isn't enough information is inherently suspect. Since some of the information is suspect as you put it, you're going to discount all of it? I would be nowhere if not for the information on this forum, and I would guess 80% or greater users of this forum would be too. Best practices are called "best" practices, not "perfect" or "end-all-be-all" practices. There are generally shared ideas that will put you down a path that is most likely to lead to success.

Please note that I have said over and over again that anecdote is powerful and useful and almost all we have to go on.

I think we have more than that, we've got trends and correlation, while having to acknowledge that some systems will buck the trend.

Of course - hasn't it always been about that? And money too. Are you not interested in saving animals lives or saving money? Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying.

I think I am misunderstanding what you are saying. I thought we were discussing parameters in reef tanks and generally accepted husbandry practices, and unconventional approaches, next thing we're talking about saving lives and money.
 
No, I don't think anyone has done that. But it would be interesting to see.

Without it, it seems that we should not state what you seemed to stat about correlation and trends in the hobby being backed by statistical info.

As it relates to SPS, Darryl put together a pretty solid list of TOTMs that had many things similar enough to point towards a trend.

Maybe. TOTM on RC is not the end all of reefkeeping. There are plenty of tanks that are great that do not follow those trends.
How are TOTM picked?

Can you definitively claim a correlation or a positive trend? No, but that is where one would likely start, as the information that is there strongly suggests that a trend or correlation exists.

Not sure about strongly, but suggests of course.

Just like thinking there isn't enough information is inherently suspect. Since some of the information is suspect as you put it, you're going to discount all of it? I would be nowhere if not for the information on this forum, and I would guess 80% or greater users of this forum would be too.

Of course not! I don't think I have suggested that. Being skeptical is different from being cynical or discounting things out of hand. A skeptic is not closed minded to new ideas or old ideas, but is cautious of ideas that are presented without much, or any, supporting evidence. Anecdote is by definition something to be cautious of, as is information presented on public forums.

Again, anecdote can be incredibly useful, and sometimes it is all we have, but I think when we believe that anecdote is fact, when anecdote becomes dogma, we are risking a great deal.

Best practices are called "best" practices, not "perfect" or "end-all-be-all" practices. There are generally shared ideas that will put you down a path that is most likely to lead to success.

I think we have more than that, we've got trends and correlation, while having to acknowledge that some systems will buck the trend.

I am not sure how many trends and correlation we actually have, but we do have a lot of assumed trends and correlation. I think that is an important difference. We have seen so many trends that were thought to be critically important to reef keeping come and go that it is hard to not be cautious about the one currently enjoying popularity.

I think I am misunderstanding what you are saying. I thought we were discussing parameters in reef tanks and generally accepted husbandry practices, and unconventional approaches, next thing we're talking about saving lives and money.

I was responding to the idea about trends and correlations. If we assume that we have strong correlations and trends but we don't, animals suffer. We see this in so many threads about ich for example. We see it when people chase numbers to fit the assumed correlation between animal health and pH, when so often trying to artificially raise or lower pH results in animal stress. We see problems when people switch to a new salt mix because they see so many people switch and report good results (and it seems so much worse when they were having great results before the switch). We saw, and still see, similar when people add biopellet reactors to thriving reef tanks.

Hope that makes sense!
 
Sure! Set up two (more is better, but two will work) as identically as possible. Add the thing to be tested to one and not the other. Test and see if it does what it is supposed to do, and see what the control tank does without the thing being added.

This would be great on about a million things, including and not limited to:
Carbon dosing for nitrate (some numbers might remove some of the guess work)
Carbon dosing on phosphate
ATS on nitrate
ATS on phosphate
Ammino acids on coral color (harder because defining color is harder)
All the zeo products individually and together
LED vs MH on growth (need more than 2 tanks I think)
Any coral food
Any supplement
Bryposis controls, both chemical and biological
Etc,

See the Inland Reef link above for some practical ideas. I have been toying with the idea of a 'Reef Busters' organization, but that seems like a lot of work that I don't necessarily have time for, but it would be great. It would also be great to harness the power of MASNA and reef clubs to get this kind of stuff done.

A lot of this wouldn't be all THAT hard for many people to test, but some are trickier than others.

One of the challenges with things like supplements is accounting for variables in the water that might not even be readily measurable. Ie: quantity and type of zooplankton, organic nitrogen in salt mix, etc.

Things like LED vs MH however wouldn't be all that difficult to test in terms of logistics. Hook up a few smaller tanks to a larger system, cut a number of identically sized frags from a single colony, and toss them in. Still not quite perfect, but good enough to draw at least some conclusions, if repeated.
 
You named a fish after me? I'm honored!:D It's like your tank is a special club or something. Then again, there's a lot of Marks in this hobby! Anyway, I wasn't asking in regards to linking bio-load to phosphate. I'm with you on the phosphate skepticism. I remember seeing an experiment where sections of actual reef were blocked off from algae grazers, and those areas were quickly overgrown with algae. With such clean natural water, the casual observer would think about rock-laden phosphates and detritus. And it also lends a lot to the absolute necessity of herbivores on a reef..... Anyway, I was curious about your fish in regards to grazers. But also would love a complete picture regarding sponge munchers and pod predators. If you think that would derail the thread, no worries. I'll hit you up via other channels. :)

Right! Common first

Billy
Susan
The Master
Number 3
Mark
Jake
Raj
Sanjay
Boomer
Joe

More later! :D
 
Not really. I don't look at it too much. Any idea of what kind of observation you are curious about? I can go down and report back. :D
Well, I haven't really had a chance to peer in your sump and ponder, so Its hard to get specific. :)

If I were to make such a change, I would be curious to know how that might affect the sump. You are potentially leaving a bunch of snacks in that there sump. I'd be curious to know if anything showed up to dine or if the detritus just accumulates.
 
Interesting. I know I've seen controlled experiments where elevated PO4 caused marked reduction in calcification. That makes me wonder if it's actually PO4 + "X" that causes problems, and whatever that "X" is isn't in your system. Or perhaps the other way around, in the presence of "X", PO4 no longer causes problems.

May I suggest that "X" could be amino acids. I subscribe to the latter (i.e. "in the presence of "X", PO4 no longer causes problems") To quote Habib (of Salifert): "Amino acids fulfil many important functions . They stabilise the skeletal material avoiding the transformation into a totally different crystal structure, and they also decrease the negative effect of phosphate on coral growth"
 
I don't think the experiments matter. I think we'll always have anecdote and correlation regarding nitrates, phosphates, etc. and their levels as related to coral health and color. However, as has been pointed out over and over in this thread, each tank is different and will/may react differently to whatever change or adjustment may be made to have a desired effect, even if the "science" tells you what should happen.

What we do have are strong correlations and trends though. There are enough people on here to define these trends and correlations with a certain amount of confidence. Is it proof, no, but it is the best we have in my opinion and the best we'll get. I would definitely say that Thales' tank and his phosphate levels are approaching two standard deviations from the mean. Based on everything I've seen and read, a low to undetectable level of phosphate and nitrate are the norm for SPS tanks. Those with 0 readings of both can have a colourful tank and may be on the opposite side of the trend line, but maybe they've packed their tank with SPS that thrive in ULNS, and on the flip side the person with detectable phosphate and nitrate have millis, caps, and stags that seem to enjoy or tolerate higher nutrient levels. If I were to advise someone else, I would suggest they follow the mean (low nutrients including phosphate and nitrate), as that is most likely where their tank will be - but maybe it will fall away from the mean.

Away from the mean the art part comes in. Careful observation, and I mean almost studious observation, is often overlooked in reefkeeping. Compared to the science, art plays a large role in this discussion and I think is the reason why we'll never have scientific answers for the reefkeeper (compared to a scientific study in a lab with a control and one independent variable as Thales has suggested). The "Art" is to watch your tank closely and decide what, if any, adjustments are to me made. I think every experienced reefkeeper on here will tell you that after a while, they don't really need to test too often for their parameters - they can tell through observation that things are out of skew. The art is also to then take a course of action that you feel is best warranted - maybe everyone is telling you need to do Plan A on this forum, but really you think Plan B is the best path, and therefore that is the one you should go down even if conventional wisdom and other reefers are telling you otherwise.

One or two tweaks in a reef tank, a complex "closed" system that reaches its own biological equilibrium, is akin to chaos' theory butterfly effect, where one small change can cause a chain reaction of events and trying to understand the what and how becomes almost impossible. So everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

Couldn't agree more, Jordan..
What is a new reefer or even a seasoned reefer to take away from this thread?
Mostly, to be skeptical... Even of his thread..
Thales' tank cannot be used as evidence of anything and especially cannot be used by a newbe as an example of how to keep his/her reef..
A new tank (let's say less than 1 1/2 years old), I suspect would fail horribly if it had Thales' water chemistry..
This thread is for educational purposes and what it teaches is that there are many common practices in this hobby that generally get people closer to succes but sometimes (ok, Thales, perhaps even often) there are practices that produce good results that seem to go against conventional wisdom.
For a new reefer, conventional wisdom is the best there is at the moment and conventional wisdom suggests controlled levels of n and p produce better results than uncontrolled n and p..
In a mature system (I'd say 4-5 years old) when sponges, bacteria, microfauna and whatever else populates a system and it has established some sort of solid mini ecosystem, it seems that higher levels of n and p aren't as impacting on the health of the inhabitants.. Providing there is a multitude of algae grazers..
A new reefer or even an experienced one dealing with a set back must read this thread and many others as well as whatever research he/she cares to find and come up with a plan.. This plan will be based (more often than not) on conventional wisdom and even though some will disagree, more often than not conventional wisdom is more of a help than a hindrance...
Thales' tank I would argue is more of a hindrance than a help BUT I know Thales is not suggesting that people try to follow his numbers.... That's why this thread is here... To help people think for themselves and to gather up as much varying evidence that fits in with their individual reef keeping ideology and implement the practices he/she feels are best for them... If it doesn't work, they must go back the source of information and formulate a new plan based on what most people do to be successfull.. that's conventional wisdom.. Whether it's scientifically proven or anecdotal, trends in conventional wisdom seem to lead most (maybe only 51%) people to a higher degree of success.
I find that, although this thread is incredibly thought provoking- even eye opening, there is an element of futility to it.. Basically, no matter what you do, you are blind and may fail and you can't trust anything or any information..

But one has to trust the practices that lead the majority of people to some level of success and at the moment this comes from anecdotal evidence and not science..
 
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