Guide to setup a Quarantine Tank (QT).

[borg1of2]

i do not recommend anything less than 20 due to stability issues but if space is limited 10 gal is the least i would go with. 2.5 is not a good choice at all.

Could you elaborate on what type of stability issues could be seen? I have a 10 gal and unfortunately continue to loose fish, lost more then I have been able to keep and am really struggling with the QT process.

Is 20 really going to be better, if all you use is a HOB, with ceramic rings as the filter media?

 

[Dr. Reef]

Could you elaborate on what type of stability issues could be seen? I have a 10 gal and unfortunately continue to loose fish, lost more then I have been able to keep and am really struggling with the QT process.

Is 20 really going to be better, if all you use is a HOB, with ceramic rings as the filter media?

Let me start with a common saying, More body of water more stable it is.
That being said, i have found 3 major issues in small tanks. When i say small i mean anything less than 20 gal.
Salinty/Evaporation, Temperature, Poisoning and Space.
In small tanks heat is a big factor. Small tanks generally dont have any way to cool themselves nor have chillers thus causing water temps to be unstable. They can swing many degrees between lights being on/off and temp of room swinging between day and night.
Temp swings like that can stress animals fast and stress leads to casualties.
Salinity/Evaporation also occurs in small tanks just as bad as big tanks but the difference being that a swing in salinity happens when water evaporates.
Big body of water will not be hit with evaporation so bad while a swing in a small tang may be drastic. Most small tanks do no have ATO's as well so salinity and evaporation will hurt animals and stress them if left unchecked.
Poisoning is also a big factor in small tanks. Imagine if by accident someone or kids end up putting something in the tank or accident happens which dumps a whole lot of food in the tank. a large tank will spike ammonia which maybe only in small amount but same amount of food in a small tank will cause a major spike in ammonia.
Last but not least, Space, space inside a tank does matter. This is why we have size of fish to space in tank ratios. These animals are used to vastness of oceans though they are confined to a small area in a reef but they dont have the space phobia and walls blocking them from moving around freely.
All the above factors are ify and they do happen to stress fish out alot and thus causing deaths.
Transport/shipping and acclimation is another factor that causes stress but if the fish are going to a small tank that adds on.

Second part of your question:
Bigger water body will have less stability issues, Also will have bigger HOB abd more ceramic ring and more surface area for bacteria to grow on. More bacteria and surface area means more and fast ways to process ammonia and thus making the tank a bit more safer to process toxic ammonia to safer form.
More water body will be a bit more stable on temp.
More space means fish will have more room to hide/swim and bit less phobia of small space.
I hope i have explained it in detail like you wanted.
Please write me a detail of your equipment and buying/transporting fish process along with acclimation and other qt practices and what kinda problems your facing. i maybe able to pin point the factor causing issues.
Good Luck and Safe Reefing.

 

[fairladyZ]

hey bnumair sorry to keep bugging you but wanted to guidance. So it's been 4 days since i double fed the tank. I've been doing 25% water changes every day just because i can't keep the api kit from turning green, I have been putting in tiny amount of prime each night just to get it thru the night then do the water change in the morning and by night its showing ammonia again. So i'm curious am i hurting anything by putting in a little prime every night? i'm afraid to really feed the fish cause i'm afraid of an ammonia spike and i'm also afraid that the prime will eventually wear off and cause an ammonia spike aswell. I have an ammonia alert in there was is supposed to take 3 days to adjust and today was the 3rd and it's still showing safe, i know it only detects toxic ammonia where the API will pick up ammonium aswell which isn't as toxic on the fish. He's swimming and acting fine no signs of poisoning..

This QT is really stressing me out i don't want to hurt this little guy, am i over-reacting or over thinking this thing cause it's really kicking my butt!

 

[borg1of2]

I hope i have explained it in detail like you wanted.
Please write me a detail of your equipment and buying/transporting fish process along with acclimation and other qt practices and what kinda problems your facing. i maybe able to pin point the factor causing issues.
Good Luck and Safe Reefing.

Thanks very much for the reply. I am not going to re-hash the history as I am sure I've made mistakes along the way and have certainly been making adjustments as I've learned. I think I am not at the point of deciding to keep the 10 gal and be diligent with my approach and keep Prime on hand and add it as a pre-emptive measure as I make changes to the tank. I currently have it torn down and am cleaning everything and will be starting with fresh salt and doing a complete cycle with fresh ceramic rings, etc. Or throw it all away and build a QT system with a 20 gal and hope that makes a difference.

I fully get the purpose and understand the risk of just adding fish directly to the DT and putting healthy fish at risk, just struggling with the losses I am seeing (bought 11 fish and only 4 have survived the QT processes)

 

[Dr. Reef]

hey bnumair sorry to keep bugging you but wanted to guidance. So it's been 4 days since i double fed the tank. I've been doing 25% water changes every day just because i can't keep the api kit from turning green, I have been putting in tiny amount of prime each night just to get it thru the night then do the water change in the morning and by night its showing ammonia again. So i'm curious am i hurting anything by putting in a little prime every night? i'm afraid to really feed the fish cause i'm afraid of an ammonia spike and i'm also afraid that the prime will eventually wear off and cause an ammonia spike aswell. I have an ammonia alert in there was is supposed to take 3 days to adjust and today was the 3rd and it's still showing safe, i know it only detects toxic ammonia where the API will pick up ammonium aswell which isn't as toxic on the fish. He's swimming and acting fine no signs of poisoning..

This QT is really stressing me out i don't want to hurt this little guy, am i over-reacting or over thinking this thing cause it's really kicking my butt!

i have a feeling its ur API kit, they are known to have this problem. Also prime will give ammonia test kit a false reading as well.
check ur fish, if its swimming around freely and eating freely and NOT breathing heavy then there is a good chance there is 0 ammonia, my personal guess would be no ammonia as well.

 

[fairladyZ]

i have a feeling its ur API kit, they are known to have this problem. Also prime will give ammonia test kit a false reading as well.
check ur fish, if its swimming around freely and eating freely and NOT breathing heavy then there is a good chance there is 0 ammonia, my personal guess would be no ammonia as well.

Well when I check the ammonia I always check dt and qt at the same time so I can compare. And the qt is always green while dt is yellow. So I'm sure there is ammonia just not sure if it's toxic and the prime has binded it all. The fish itself seems fine. Very alert. Picking all the time at algae. He won't eat in front of me yet cause he hides in the pvc when he sees me. Never at the surface and doesn't appear to be panting or anything. I did a 50% wc this morning so hopefully it will test near 0 tonight

 

[Dr. Reef]

It could also be false reading from prime bonding with ammonia. if the fish look fine and healthy and not panting and seems active them most likely there is no ammonia.
If you leave the tank with out dosing any prime and with out doing any water change for 24 hrs what does the ammonia read then?
note: i see u did 50% WC today so leave it be and dont dose and prime tonight and check for ammonia tomorrow morning. if there is ammonia then use prime/WC if not then ur good to go.

 

[fairladyZ]

well i got home from work today and decided to check ammonia to see where the 50% WC put me and it was still pretty green. The fish is still active and swimming in a loop in 1 corner of the tank and doesn't seem to want to leave that corner, up and down the side kind of picking/rubbing against the glass. He won't sit still long enough to see if he's breathing heavy but his mouth is moving quite abit, not sure if that is just a bristletooth thing. The Ammonia Alert still reads safe. I dunno i figured if it was getting better i would have sucked out most the prime with the 50% WC, concerns me that it's still as green as it is.

 

[CanuckReefer]

I have a fish in my DT that has itch so I have to take everything out and QT them. I need to rid the itch in my DT so I know I need to leave it empty for 8 weeks.

My question is, can I leave the snails and a shrimp in my main tank while going fish less to rid the itch?

And these are the fish that I am going to treat with copper in my QT, is there any issues with copper and these fish?
- Yellow Tang
- Chromis
- Clownfish
- Firefish
- Cleaner wrasse
- Diamond Goby

 

[Dr. Reef]

I have a fish in my DT that has itch so I have to take everything out and QT them. I need to rid the itch in my DT so I know I need to leave it empty for 8 weeks.

My question is, can I leave the snails and a shrimp in my main tank while going fish less to rid the itch?

And these are the fish that I am going to treat with copper in my QT, is there any issues with copper and these fish?
- Yellow Tang
- Chromis
- Clownfish
- Firefish
- Cleaner wrasse
- Diamond Goby

Yes inverts are fine in the tank that had ich outbreak. As long as there is no fish to host it should die out over time. i recommend 10-12 weeks for sure to rid ich in fallow tank. I would treat all fish taken out from that tank with either hypo or cupramine and there are guides for that in my blog. if you click on the blue number under my name it will take you there.
Good Luck and Safe Reefing.

 

[geezers11]

Good stuff Reef Doctor.

I have a 38 gallon. Recently, a clown sadly succumbed quickly to ich. So I've put the remaining 3 fish (green chromis, mccosker wrasse, orange stripe goby) into a 10 gal QT (or might opt for a 20g). Will keep out for 6-8 weeks and medicate while the main tank goes fallow to kill remaining ich.

When I return the fish to display tank, won't there be a quick spike due to less bacteria since that tank went fish-less?

Thanks for the helpful advice.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Good stuff Reef Doctor.

I have a 38 gallon. Recently, a clown sadly succumbed quickly to ich. So I've put the remaining 3 fish (green chromis, mccosker wrasse, orange stripe goby) into a 10 gal QT (or might opt for a 20g). Will keep out for 6-8 weeks and medicate while the main tank goes fallow to kill remaining ich.

When I return the fish to display tank, won't there be a quick spike due to less bacteria since that tank went fish-less?

Thanks for the helpful advice.

Very good question. short answer is yes if tank is left fallow for over time it will die off the bacteria needed to keep it cycled. So in order to fix this problem one should ghost feed the tank every 3-4 days a normal pinch of food. This will keep ammonia in tank that would keep bacteria alive and in numbers that will be just fine when u place the fish back in.
Good Luck and Safe Reefing.

 

[ATLL765]

well i got home from work today and decided to check ammonia to see where the 50% WC put me and it was still pretty green. The fish is still active and swimming in a loop in 1 corner of the tank and doesn't seem to want to leave that corner, up and down the side kind of picking/rubbing against the glass. He won't sit still long enough to see if he's breathing heavy but his mouth is moving quite abit, not sure if that is just a bristletooth thing. The Ammonia Alert still reads safe. I dunno i figured if it was getting better i would have sucked out most the prime with the 50% WC, concerns me that it's still as green as it is.

The API test for Ammonia is impossible to read. For one, even when ammonia is 0, the color of the test is still greener than the color on the card, imo.

When it comes up off that 0 mark though, it becomes a more green, green. That sounds stupid because it is, lol, but what I'm saying is it turns more of a pale/pea green than the yellowish-green color that marks 0ppm.

Not sure if that's gonna help, but thought I'd mention it.

Also, on the QT topic: I have a fluval c3 power filter and they come with those ceramic thingies for bio filtration. Can I just stick them, in their cartridge/container or in a filter sock/media bag, in my sump to get them built up with bacteria? I read a lot of the thread, but man this is a long one, lol.

The filter runs at about 150gph, I was thinking this would be enough surface agitation to not need an airstone in a 20L? Might stick one of those tiny koralia nano 240s in there to get more flow. I imagine if I did that, it would definitely get enough gas exchange at the surface, right?

 

[Dr. Reef]

The API test for Ammonia is impossible to read. For one, even when ammonia is 0, the color of the test is still greener than the color on the card, imo.

When it comes up off that 0 mark though, it becomes a more green, green. That sounds stupid because it is, lol, but what I'm saying is it turns more of a pale/pea green than the yellowish-green color that marks 0ppm.

Not sure if that's gonna help, but thought I'd mention it.

Also, on the QT topic: I have a fluval c3 power filter and they come with those ceramic thingies for bio filtration. Can I just stick them, in their cartridge/container or in a filter sock/media bag, in my sump to get them built up with bacteria? I read a lot of the thread, but man this is a long one, lol.

The filter runs at about 150gph, I was thinking this would be enough surface agitation to not need an airstone in a 20L? Might stick one of those tiny koralia nano 240s in there to get more flow. I imagine if I did that, it would definitely get enough gas exchange at the surface, right?

I agree on API ammonia test kits, most of then hardly show true 0 and also we got to realize there is always some amount of ammonia in every tank as its being produced 24/7 by decaying of food or waste by fish etc and while its being converted from ammonia to nitrites there is always a chance u test it at that stage and might register some.
Anyways back to your question, theoratically it should work, You can seed the media by placing it in you established tank it should grow bacteria on it. But there is some technical issues with that, which i explained in detail before but i will touch it slightly for new reefers to understand.
Keeping media near an established filter can and cannot seed the new media.
reason: if the established tank has enough bacteria to neutralize ammonia being produced in the tank then it wont need to grow more colonies of bacteria thus seeding new media may not work. But its worth trying.
Remember bacteria only lives in same proportion as ammonia being produced.
If tank produces a very small amount of ammonia then bacteria numbers will be low, If for any reason there is a spike in ammonia production bacteria will double its numbers in 15 hrs to eleminate the extra ammonia. After eleminating ammonia spike, production of ammonia will go back to normal so will the added bacteria die off and go back to same old strength.
Good Luck and Safe reefing.

 

[Liavb22]

Hello. I've setup a current usa, 30 gallon tank as a temporary place to stock fish I purchase for the 220 gallon build. So far there is on a green chromis and purple tang. I noticed some spots on the tang last nights and started reading this thread. I read a few pages with no one asking some of my concerns, so I'm sorry if I'm asking a question someone else already asked.

1) you mention that not all things presumed to be ich end up being ich, so my question is how do I know? Yesterday it was about 5 white spots on the fish and now it's more like 7-10. He does not seem to be stressed (it's eating) and does not scratch itself on the rocks. Before ripping this tank apart to catch the fish and treat it, do you know what else it could be or where I can go to find out?

2) most people on here were talking about copper, yet it seems that the salinity process is the safest. What's the reason for that. Is it harder to do or has to be monitored more?

3) I have a 30 gallon with a cheap hang on back filter. I'll add a heater, and powerhead, and add water from the DT. Question on this do I need to change water daily, or only when I see any trace of ammonia?

4) Should the fish be in the dark during time of QT with minimal feeding, or should I leave the lights on for a few hours?

thanks in advance for all the help.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Hello Liavb22
your concerns and questions are very good and interesting and answers should help many readers.
So here we go.

1. Not all spots end up being ich, sometimes its just fine grains of sand attached to the skin of the fish. some times it could be scars etc mistaken by many newbies as ich. Sometimes a stressed out fish (specially tangs) can show pigments that are white and may look like ich to a new eye. so there are many variables. If the spots are growing and leaving and coming back and/or loss of appetite, shyness, heavy breathing, hiding, scratching or getting cleaned by shrimp or wrasse may all be definite signs of ich.
I would also look into this thread to identify.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=1818


2. To me hyposalinity is a much easier process than copper for many reason i have given before but its a personal choice. If you can post a pic of the fish i can probably id it for you.
Also if confirmed you can read through my blog where you can find guides to treat by hypo and also a guide to treat by copper.
here are the links.
hyposalinity
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2300497
copper based
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20614751#post20614751
Hypo treatment has to have a good ATO and a good calibrated refractometer to hold 1.009 steady for many weeks.

3. Setting up a QT is a good idea for treatment but the way you described it it will need to be cycled or you will have to watch for ammonia daily and change water accordingly. in my personal experience water changes might need to be done daily due to ammonia being produced my fish waste and food decay and no bacteria to neutralize it. So best thing i can advise you is to have a lot of water ready for water changes at the same salinity you are holding hypo at (1.009).

4. Fish really dont care for light infact all my QT's remain dark through the treatment except for when i feed the fish and observe about 30-60 mins a day.
Good luck and Safe reefing.

 

[Liavb22]

bnumair,

Thank you very much for taking your time to explain this. I've owned my 80 gallon rimless for almost 2 years and did experience an ich (or what I thought was ich) with a lolipop tang. I care very much about losing fish and did crazy research at the time to make sure that the other fish don't get infected. No other fish ever did, for 2 years. This either means it was not ich or for some reason, I got lucky, because from what I understand, ich will come back and usually in a matter of a month.

I tried QT a Desarjini I bought about a year ago, and I'm pretty sure I did something wrong and killed it. It died in 3 days. This bothers me as I got into this hobby for the love of animals (and scuba diving), not to hurt or kill them.

I wish I could get a good pic, but my camera won't allow it (too dark because of the tank light), so I'll try and explain. First off, I read the article you attached and there are a few spots on the fins, but most are on the body. I just noticed that the amount has increased since looking last (earlier today) and it looks like there are about 30-40 spots on the sides of the fish. They are white spots, almost like sand, but sand falls off the fish fairly quickly. This has been increasing in the 2 days I've noticed it.

I will read the instructions on the treatments, but do you think that I should start treatment on the fish now, or should I wait a few days and see how it progresses?

Thanks again for your time and help.

 

[Liavb22]

Oh and one other thing. If the process of ich will mean that at one point they may get off of the fish, do you think that removing the fish and placing it in another tank without any treatment would work? Meaning, I'd leave the fish in the other system for 6 weeks until all of the parasites die.

 

[Liavb22]

Hello. Spots on the fish day 3. it's still eating, I didn't notice it scratching on the rocks. Should I remove it and start treatment or wait a bit more?

 

[Dr. Reef]

Liavb22 if there are spots and confirmed parasites (which you do now) you need to remove all fish from that tank and put them in qt and treat accordingly. i wouldnt wait any longer and start treatment right away.