Has Anyone Tried a "Rubble Bottom?"

[Randall_James]

Just Dave, how large is that tank?
You did a spectacular job with the appeance of "Depth" The images give an illusion of "zones" with way different looks in each.

 

[algaeguy]

jda:

Interesting point that you bring up- one that always seems to be mentioned in conjunction with rubble bottom tanks:

The large amount of infauna and natural food being produced in the tank! This type of information is really useful. The more I hear from fellow hobbyists about the rubble bottom, the more I think that this may be a really cool way to run a tank!

Thanks again for your input!

Scott

 

[just dave]

Just Dave, how large is that tank?
You did a spectacular job with the appeance of "Depth" The images give an illusion of "zones" with way different looks in each.

Thanks.
It's 48"x48"x24" so the depth part you are seeing may not be an illusion.

 

[Don424]

Re: Anyone Try a "Rubble Bottom"?

Re: Anyone Try a "Rubble Bottom"?

Hi everyone:

I've been working with my new 225 reef, which is being modeled after a "rubble zone" area of a reef. Predominant corals are various Faviids, with a smattering of Pocillopora colonies.

Anyways, the tank has started out more or less barebottom, as I have wicked flow provided by 4 Tunze Streams and a Sequence Dart for the main return. Such flow has made a conventional sandbed a bit of a problem, so I have avoided one altogether. I like the look of sand (at least in a shallow depth), but I do like the ease of maintenance that barebottom affords (thanks to Bomber and others for inspiration!). Have thought of about 1/3-1/2 inch of coarse media, such as Carib-Sea "Aruba Puka" aragonite and perhaps crushed coral.

I have been using moderate-sized pieces (2"-4") and broken- up (1"-2" chunks) of Tonga slab to construct some "rubble piles", and I must say, it's coming out pretty decent...

What I am thinking of doing is to cover the entire bottom with small rubble pieces (with appropriate crevices and nooks). Maybe even some finer (1'2"- 3/4) smashed up pieces...all at a very shallow depth. I realize such a setup may not be for everyone, as much attention needs to be paid to detritus accumulation and overall husbandry...I consider myself a master of aquatic husbandry, so maintenance is not an issue. The areas in the tank where I have done this already are looking great, and the system has been chemically stable for the 4months that the system has been up and running. I'm really interested in my fellow reefer's thoughts on the aesthetics of such a bottom...

Fishes include lots of blennies and gobies, Halichoeres wrasses,a Centropyge angel, and a couple of Zebrasoma sp. tangs. Everyone seems to be doing fine.

Has anyone run, or contemplated running, such a system? If so, I'd love to hear comments and thoughts, or even see some pics if you have them.

As always- thanks to all in advance for your feedback.

Scott

Lillibirdy is right on with a good way to do it. Nice job on your tank Lillibirdy ............it looks great. What HOB are you using and what pumps are you using for the Reverse flow UGF?

Algaeguy,

Put a UGF plate in. Put your rock on it then the rubble. Use a high flow/reverse flow powerhead on each end tube. The high flow powerheads like the penguin/ reverse flow unit at i think 175 gph each will give you alot of flow to blow the detritus up into the water column. No detriitus........no nitrate

 

[lillibirdy]

Thanks Don, HOB is millenium 2000, My pumps are indeed the Penguin 660Reverse flow at 175 gph. I am hoping it helps with keeping detritus up in water column, sure seems to be helping. Not sure if it will be low enough for certain corals, but we shall see. Like Paul B's, I might have to allow it to develope some (much smaller) areas of anaerobic bacteria in the CC, but if so I spose I will have to stop stirring the skinny area behind my rocks maybe, that and get a clam, (yaaay). I like the out of the box thinking. And the idea that I can do this without spending TONS of money on equipment.

 

[Don424]

Thanks Don, HOB is millenium 2000, My pumps are indeed the Penguin 660Reverse flow at 175 gph. I am hoping it helps with keeping detritus up in water column, sure seems to be helping. Not sure if it will be low enough for certain corals, but we shall see. Like Paul B's, I might have to allow it to develope some (much smaller) areas of anaerobic bacteria in the CC, but if so I spose I will have to stop stirring the skinny area behind my rocks maybe, that and get a clam, (yaaay). I like the out of the box thinking. And the idea that I can do this without spending TONS of money on equipment.

Lillibirdy

Yeah........those penguins are supposed to be good. Are they quiet? I'm going to my LFS with one of my MaxiJet pumps to see if the Penguin conversion fitting will fit on to it. Make sure you rinse the pre-filter sponges every 1-2 weeks or so. I'm going to guess that some of the anerobic bacteria will build up underneath your rock in the CC over time.
Should be low enough for corals .........down the road....I'd wait a bit. Keep an eye open for an ammonia/nitrite spike :beachbum:

 

[lillibirdy]

I guess it's quiet, all I hear is my dang skimmer noise, (Remora pro sucking noise, but that is much better since I added a bit of folded filter material over the left side). I do rinse my sponges every week with my water changes, and don't even see that much stuff on them. My skimmer pulls out lotsa wet green yuk too. So far so good!

 

[Whaledriver]

I saw this thread today and thought I would toss out a few ideas I was thinking of for a tank in the future.
I would use a undergravel filter plate and maybe open up the grateing a little. Put a valve on your sequance so that you can put all the flow through the undergravel filter for an hour a day. During the rest of the day you can have a maintenance flow as needed. What this will do is keep anything from collecting at all and it should toss all the pods and mysis into the water creating a nice feeding opertunity for the fish.
I would stick with rocks larger than an inch with plenty of nooks and cranys for life to hide in
With this much disturbance in the rock level on a daily basis you should not have any trouble with detritus buildup. It should also let the skimmer keep up with the silt buildup

 

[NeilPearson]

Naw....horse shoe crabs eat small crustaceans (pods) and worms.

... in other words - microfauna

 

[Don424]

I guess it's quiet, all I hear is my dang skimmer noise, (Remora pro sucking noise, but that is much better since I added a bit of folded filter material over the left side). I do rinse my sponges every week with my water changes, and don't even see that much stuff on them. My skimmer pulls out lotsa wet green yuk too. So far so good!

Lillibirdy

Yeah.....those Remora's can make a racket from what I've read over the past year but I'm sure it will calm down as this new set up matures in the tank. By the way.......what/who's undergravel filter do you use? I was going with a Perfecto but they have ridgespeaks & valley's) in them........I'd prefer all flat but can't seem to find one that doesn't bend do to the weight of my live rock. Any suggestions?.............and keep me up to date on your tank and if you get any new pictures...chiao:thumbsup:

 

[Don424]

I saw this thread today and thought I would toss out a few ideas I was thinking of for a tank in the future.
I would use a undergravel filter plate and maybe open up the grateing a little. Put a valve on your sequance so that you can put all the flow through the undergravel filter for an hour a day. During the rest of the day you can have a maintenance flow as needed. What this will do is keep anything from collecting at all and it should toss all the pods and mysis into the water creating a nice feeding opertunity for the fish.
I would stick with rocks larger than an inch with plenty of nooks and cranys for life to hide in
With this much disturbance in the rock level on a daily basis you should not have any trouble with detritus buildup. It should also let the skimmer keep up with the silt buildup

Interesting idea........might also promote nitrate reduction to if you're suggesting having the reverse flow on for only an hour a day. Tha t might promote a slow construction of anerobic bacteria under the plate or the bottom layer of the CC...............and maintenance flow would keep the rest of the crud moving around so the skimmer or HOB filter could catch it.

Anybody else out there have a spin on Whaledrivers idea?:idea:

 

[Don424]

Sorry Whaledriver..........I mean the bottom layer of the rubble......not CC

 

[algaeguy]

Don and Whaledriver:

Thanks again for the sweet ideas...Who would have thought that the humble UG filter can be a valuable ally in a 21st centrury setup? It's cool to see this kind of creative thinking!

What I've been doing so far is using large pieces of Tonga slab rock placed directly on the bottom, with pieces loosely stacked on top of others, yet leaving plenty of "void" space in between. With my Streams blasting a cycle of 30%-100% throughout the tank, and the Sequence doing its magic, I have only seen detritus accumulation in one easy-to-siphon area. Surprisingly(?), I have seen no detectible nitrate or phosphate thus far.

I think if I were doing it over again, I'd try the UGF plate idea. This may be a fantastic way to maintain such alternative systems for the long run.

Keep the ideas coming!

Scott

 

[Whaledriver]

This idea would also let you set up the tank and not have to do much maintenance. Like the old fresh water days you could put a automatic feeder on it and just check it once a week to clean the skimmer.

I think a Manderin would love hunting the rubble for food all day.

 

[lillibirdy]

Don, how will the the bottom of layer of rubble grow anaerobic bacteria? I thought it wasn't condensed enough to shut out oxygen? In my own tank, I think the areas under my rubble that is CC will surely grow some, and if I stop stirring CC behind rocks.

But won't the actual rubble layer itself get to much oxygen to allow that type of oxygen starved bacteria? Maybe I am confused again, wouldn't surprise me none...lol.

 

[Don424]

Don and Whaledriver:

Thanks again for the sweet ideas...Who would have thought that the humble UG filter can be a valuable ally in a 21st centrury setup? It's cool to see this kind of creative thinking!

What I've been doing so far is using large pieces of Tonga slab rock placed directly on the bottom, with pieces loosely stacked on top of others, yet leaving plenty of "void" space in between. With my Streams blasting a cycle of 30%-100% throughout the tank, and the Sequence doing its magic, I have only seen detritus accumulation in one easy-to-siphon area. Surprisingly(?), I have seen no detectible nitrate or phosphate thus far.

I think if I were doing it over again, I'd try the UGF plate idea. This may be a fantastic way to maintain such alternative systems for the long run.

Keep the ideas coming!

Scott

Scott

For that zone that's accumulating some detritus, any chance a spray bar across the bottom of the tank would help or a maxijet powerhead with that Hydor rotating flow head on it?

Look....even if you go into the tank once every week of 2 with a powerhead and blow the stuff up into the water column, that should be fine. Very short maintenance time......should take all of a minute or two.
I sent you an email to get pictures:

 

[Don424]

Don, how will the the bottom of layer of rubble grow anaerobic bacteria? I thought it wasn't condensed enough to shut out oxygen? In my own tank, I think the areas under my rubble that is CC will surely grow some, and if I stop stirring CC behind rocks.

But won't the actual rubble layer itself get to much oxygen to allow that type of oxygen starved bacteria? Maybe I am confused again, wouldn't surprise me none...lol.

Lillibirdy

I was referring to Whaledriver's suggestion/idea that if Algaeguy used a UGF plate with the rubble on top and sequencing reverse ugf flow for only an hour a day. Maintenance flow would be in the tank the rest of the time from other circulating pumps. Since the water under the ugf would be semi stagnant/very low flow lets say for 22 hours or so, there's a good chance that the anerobic would have a chance to build under the plate and seed into the bottom of the rubble.

The same principal and theory would apply to your tank with CC also. You're not confused......It didn't come out of my mouth the right way

 

[Whaledriver]

I think that with the large rock type rubble you would never go anerobic and wouldnt wat to anyway. The daily didturbance of the water would allow the funky water to mix with the fish water. I would have some very large rock, like 20-40 pound pieces to give the fish a place to hide.

On of the things I was thinking would be to use an Oceanic tank with the corner overflows. I would have a section in front of the overflows on each end blocked off with a 3-6 inch piece of glass. This would let me put a deepsand bed in the roughly one foot square created on each end of the tank. The rest would have a rubble bottom with a undergravel filter plate under it. I think this would give me the best of both worlds

 

[Paul B]

I would love to see how this mixed rubble, temporary fast, temp. slow rerverse UG filtered tank works out. I have my feelings about it but since I am an inventer I love controversial endeavours.
Good luck.
Paul

 

[lillibirdy]

My LFS guy just rolled his eyes and told me since the only purpose of an UGF is to make nitrates, and that it will do so whether it's reversed or not, that I should take it out, (and the CC). I hate it when someone I have to deal with, thinks I am a big ol doofus... I am aiming at mainly fish and by Spring maybe a few LPS and softies, (might experiment with an easy SPS). Is Nitrates of 12 really so bad? I am aiming lower, with refugium and some other ideas, but was just so discouraged, glad I didn't mention the big rubble pile in the middle.... I just hate telling anyone my set up......