Has Anyone Tried a "Rubble Bottom?"
- Thread starter algaeguy
- Start date
lillibirdy
New member
My 55's reverse UGF with it's CC substrate and with a large rubble area in the middle is now 0 Nitrates!!! Not sure why, but has been steadily 0 for a couple months now. Nothing has really changed except added two small xenia, and I doubt they reduced it that much. Oh and I am changing 20% every OTHER week now instead of every week..... go figure. I have 6 smallish fish and I always worry I am overfeeding, but apparently, the skimmer and clean up crew is dealing with it just fine.
When I wc and clean, I stir some CC that is in open areas and few times have used turkey baster on rubble pile, and for some reason, not as much comes up from the CC and rubble, as does when I directly blast the big rocks themselves. So strange.
When I wc and clean, I stir some CC that is in open areas and few times have used turkey baster on rubble pile, and for some reason, not as much comes up from the CC and rubble, as does when I directly blast the big rocks themselves. So strange.
Lillibirdy, your results are very interesting. I was going to use this type of set-up 10 mos. ago, when I started my latest tank, but the DSB VS BB rhetoric was so bad, along with the UGF's are "old-school-nitrate- factories etc., that I went with a "plenum-DSB". It is working fine, but I'm very interested in your success, along with the other posters here as well.
This seems to be the only thread I've seen where these ideas can be discussed freely, and it is a credit to you all.
But back to your tank. What is your bio-load, or animal population, what and how much do you feed, and most importantly, how much flow is going thru your Reverse UGF?
Congratulations on your success!! > barryhc
This seems to be the only thread I've seen where these ideas can be discussed freely, and it is a credit to you all.
But back to your tank. What is your bio-load, or animal population, what and how much do you feed, and most importantly, how much flow is going thru your Reverse UGF?
Congratulations on your success!! > barryhc
lillibirdy
New member
Thanks Barry, it is nice to be able to discuss different things without getting nailed. I hesitate to tell you my fish list, for fear someone will jump on it, not knowing my future plans, or giving me credit for having thought it out...ya know. But here goes.
one clownfish
one pajama cardinal-(both in there since tank began over a yr ago)
firefish, 2 "
blue green chromis 1"
Coral Beauty Angel 2 1/2"
Blue Tang 2" (the last fish added bout three months ago)
Skunk cleaner shrimp
Fire shrimp
about 15 snails (variety)
I feed once a day, probably too much, I try to add a bit at a time so none settles anywhere while they are eating the rest. I can't not feed them every day like some do, they beg at me and I feel sorry for them, lol. But usually only what they can eat in couple minutes. Hang Nori for the Tang every few days.
Flow on both ends of UGF is from millenium 1200's which says it is 695 gph.
I am experimenting with some rics, yuma and florida, xenia and mushrooms. I still have only NO flors for light, (till income tax refund time), so I added a grow light on each end of the tank, and put them there. All are growing really well. I did my very first frag, split a Yuma into 4 which all came thru and rounded back out very quickly. Glued each to a piece of CC, then to a rock. One bailed from the rock I had it on, and they are so small, can't find it's teensy self in my CC rubble....but, all in all, I am very happy with this tanks progress.
I can't friggin wait to see what else I can grow in there. My parameters seem fine for softies and LPS, but I am soooo curious about SPS. Oh yea, I am now flip flopping between getting VHO's or t-5's. I am still so mindboggled by the thread, "show me your VHO ONLY tank". I soooooooooo want to have some clams and SPS in my "dinosaur" - RUGF, CC, sumpless, VHO lit tank, just to prove there is more than one way to run a reef, and that it can be done without spending a ton of bucks. It really insults me when someone has the attitude of, if you can't afford aaaall the crapola, you shouldn't be running a reef. Ya know, how arrogant is that? I am enjoying each step of it's beauty and growth. And am willing to experiment a bit, (like PaulB). But as to the lights, my space is limited for the big bulbs, and might have to go with t-5s. I have no sump, so I have crap taking up room on the back on my 12" tank...aaaaarg.
My mind is just spinning on all the possibilities of what I am going to do with my next tank....
one clownfish
one pajama cardinal-(both in there since tank began over a yr ago)
firefish, 2 "
blue green chromis 1"
Coral Beauty Angel 2 1/2"
Blue Tang 2" (the last fish added bout three months ago)
Skunk cleaner shrimp
Fire shrimp
about 15 snails (variety)
I feed once a day, probably too much, I try to add a bit at a time so none settles anywhere while they are eating the rest. I can't not feed them every day like some do, they beg at me and I feel sorry for them, lol. But usually only what they can eat in couple minutes. Hang Nori for the Tang every few days.
Flow on both ends of UGF is from millenium 1200's which says it is 695 gph.
I am experimenting with some rics, yuma and florida, xenia and mushrooms. I still have only NO flors for light, (till income tax refund time), so I added a grow light on each end of the tank, and put them there. All are growing really well. I did my very first frag, split a Yuma into 4 which all came thru and rounded back out very quickly. Glued each to a piece of CC, then to a rock. One bailed from the rock I had it on, and they are so small, can't find it's teensy self in my CC rubble....but, all in all, I am very happy with this tanks progress.
I can't friggin wait to see what else I can grow in there. My parameters seem fine for softies and LPS, but I am soooo curious about SPS. Oh yea, I am now flip flopping between getting VHO's or t-5's. I am still so mindboggled by the thread, "show me your VHO ONLY tank". I soooooooooo want to have some clams and SPS in my "dinosaur" - RUGF, CC, sumpless, VHO lit tank, just to prove there is more than one way to run a reef, and that it can be done without spending a ton of bucks. It really insults me when someone has the attitude of, if you can't afford aaaall the crapola, you shouldn't be running a reef. Ya know, how arrogant is that? I am enjoying each step of it's beauty and growth. And am willing to experiment a bit, (like PaulB). But as to the lights, my space is limited for the big bulbs, and might have to go with t-5s. I have no sump, so I have crap taking up room on the back on my 12" tank...aaaaarg.
My mind is just spinning on all the possibilities of what I am going to do with my next tank....
lillibirdy
New member
Hi Paul B. Well, there are the doubters that's for sure.....but you and I are showing them. I can't really say nany nany neeners quite yet, it's still a young tank. But of course you have quieted many a doubter all on your own, haven't ya? There are others who are scared to post Have any idea where my nitrates went? I don't even change the filters in the hob or my sponges on the UGF cept every two weeks now. According to all I have heard, I should be having quite the little nitrate factory in there.... I am going to get some mangroves for the millenium hob. Not sure why now, (if Nitrates are 0), but I like the idea of them sticking out the top of my tank, waaaaay up on my desk.
Happy holidays to you too Paul!
Happy holidays to you too Paul!
Paul B
Premium Member
"nany nany neeners" I don't think I ever said that, but I think I will start. Luckily for me, there was no internet when I started so no one could jump on my, and besides we all had UG filters then.
I had my nitrates tested yesterday (I have no test kits that are not years out of date) and mine are also zero. My UG filter was probably about $12.00 when I got it in 72 so it cost me about 30 cents a year, I can do that.
I also love mangroves.
I can't wait until you can say nany nany neeners.
Have a great holiday.
Paul
I had my nitrates tested yesterday (I have no test kits that are not years out of date) and mine are also zero. My UG filter was probably about $12.00 when I got it in 72 so it cost me about 30 cents a year, I can do that.
I also love mangroves.
I can't wait until you can say nany nany neeners.
Have a great holiday.
Paul
Lillibirdy, I'm just thinking about flow rate relative to water, and much more importantly, to the area and depth of the gravel. what is the depth of the gravel?
I am trying to figure out how you are maintaining 0 Nitrates. You have a "decent" load of fish, and they are usually considered "most of the load". You are also using mechanical filtration, and that's a particularly awful "NO-NO".
The nice thing about the RUGF, is that you aren't going to collect detritus or whatever under your gravel, so the conditions you have "should remain" quite stable. Anything that is supposedly trying to develop in there, is being continuously diluted into the "column water", so nothing can build-up.
I am working on a plenum wasting experiment, and it has a lot of promise, but as stated, it is experimental, and certianly more complex.
Anyway, I'm sort of "all over" this "bacterial-process" stuff, and with an exceedingly open mind, but digging out what interactions are occuring at "specifcly what levels", is very hard to come by.
"This happens", and "that happens", and so do "these and those". Yes they do, but only in "static-beds", and at some unknown depth.
Try to talk about water flowing in a substrate, and the whole world starts "burning".
Anyway, I'll take a stab at it. We'll assume that you have a high quality test kit and use it correctly. So, this may be nothing more than a wild guess, but here goes.
700 GPH is really a tiny amount of flow when dispersed evenly across the area of a 55 gal. tank. I have about 450 GPH thru a RUGF in a 55 gal. freshwater tank, and the output "appears"to be nearly zero as far as I can tell. Food falls to the bottom easily in this tank, but it never "pulls down in" like it would otherwise. Of couse the scavengers feed here, and nothing noticable gets down in the gravel.
Your UGF plate design could play a role here. Many are not designed for reverse flow, and could easily trap water in some "low flow" areas, with no one having any idea that this could occur. there could also be low flow areas around the edges, and even under your rocks, or in your rubble pile.
This could be happening by accident or coincidence and no one is the wiser. Then again it may not be. If it was, you could be getting some denitrification from some very low oxygen areas that are still not "anoxic". this could be helping some. now if you are blowing the byproduct of the denitrification process ( which is bacteria at this point ) right into the water column, then these bacteria could be picked up in your mechanical filtration, as well as the skimmer.
Here they process a little farther, but not to the point of dumping ammonium and nitrite back into your water, which they certainly can do eventually. If any of this were occuring, it would be crucial not to let the filter material go "too long" without changing. Time will tell, if you continue "stretching" your "media-change-intervals".
I have always thought this could work in this way, BUT the "world" says otherwise. I really don't know. I am trying to find out. I really would have set-up an identical system if I had not been talked out of it. I should set one up soon as an experiment. If you live "inside a box", you don't see very much.
Keep it up and let us know how it's going. I am very interested. (obviously ) > barryhc
I am trying to figure out how you are maintaining 0 Nitrates. You have a "decent" load of fish, and they are usually considered "most of the load". You are also using mechanical filtration, and that's a particularly awful "NO-NO".
The nice thing about the RUGF, is that you aren't going to collect detritus or whatever under your gravel, so the conditions you have "should remain" quite stable. Anything that is supposedly trying to develop in there, is being continuously diluted into the "column water", so nothing can build-up.
I am working on a plenum wasting experiment, and it has a lot of promise, but as stated, it is experimental, and certianly more complex.
Anyway, I'm sort of "all over" this "bacterial-process" stuff, and with an exceedingly open mind, but digging out what interactions are occuring at "specifcly what levels", is very hard to come by.
"This happens", and "that happens", and so do "these and those". Yes they do, but only in "static-beds", and at some unknown depth.
Try to talk about water flowing in a substrate, and the whole world starts "burning".
Anyway, I'll take a stab at it. We'll assume that you have a high quality test kit and use it correctly. So, this may be nothing more than a wild guess, but here goes.
700 GPH is really a tiny amount of flow when dispersed evenly across the area of a 55 gal. tank. I have about 450 GPH thru a RUGF in a 55 gal. freshwater tank, and the output "appears"to be nearly zero as far as I can tell. Food falls to the bottom easily in this tank, but it never "pulls down in" like it would otherwise. Of couse the scavengers feed here, and nothing noticable gets down in the gravel.
Your UGF plate design could play a role here. Many are not designed for reverse flow, and could easily trap water in some "low flow" areas, with no one having any idea that this could occur. there could also be low flow areas around the edges, and even under your rocks, or in your rubble pile.
This could be happening by accident or coincidence and no one is the wiser. Then again it may not be. If it was, you could be getting some denitrification from some very low oxygen areas that are still not "anoxic". this could be helping some. now if you are blowing the byproduct of the denitrification process ( which is bacteria at this point ) right into the water column, then these bacteria could be picked up in your mechanical filtration, as well as the skimmer.
Here they process a little farther, but not to the point of dumping ammonium and nitrite back into your water, which they certainly can do eventually. If any of this were occuring, it would be crucial not to let the filter material go "too long" without changing. Time will tell, if you continue "stretching" your "media-change-intervals".
I have always thought this could work in this way, BUT the "world" says otherwise. I really don't know. I am trying to find out. I really would have set-up an identical system if I had not been talked out of it. I should set one up soon as an experiment. If you live "inside a box", you don't see very much.
Keep it up and let us know how it's going. I am very interested. (obviously ) > barryhc
lillibirdy
New member
I put a few new pics in gallery. Sure not much to speak of compared to the rest of ya's, but since I am waiting on lights and only have grow lights I am happy as heck with params and whats growing already. Quite confident it is ready for more stuff soon as lights go on. So do I have to add corals slow slow slow too? Is a few at time ok?
lillibirdy
New member
Barry, you have given this whole thing way more thought than I have, lol. I did read up, but you will probably have to tell me, how and why it is working, lol.
Not sure you understood, there is an 695 gpg pump on each end of the tank. TWO of these each pushing water from their own end.
I assumed my gravel, rocks, and 2" of CC where doing the work of growing enough good my bacteria. Technically I don't even have enough rock to do a proper job according to most folks. I rinse my filter pads in fresh sink water every other week now too, because I had not thought of them as sources of anything else except catching some misc junk, the Millenium hob mainly for creating flow, oxygen, (future tiny refuge for some mangroves)... I find when I rinse them out, there isn't much stuff on them really, same for my sponges. I am thinking it must be due to my Remora pro skimmer and box catching most of it. I have two power heads on the ends aimed at the front lower 1/3 of the tank. I don't see much of anything settle on the bottom, just keeps going in the current. I worry about the behind parts a bit, but unless it lands IN a rock stuff just seems to keep on floating till fish eat it, or skimmer gets it. I know I am pushing my bio load. I was changing religiously once a week, had family problems and went to every other week a few months ago, and was aaaaall worried, and shocked to find Nitrates at 0. Bought another different test and had same results. So keeping it there for now, with my eye on it. I will not be stretching my water changes any further, and if need be, will go back to once a week.
As to there being low oxygen areas, I spose...but my rocks are mostly stuffed down into the CC for stability sorta ON my UGF plate with the CC piled around them. Maybe under the rubble yea... And I was stirring it up where I could in the open spaces in the front and sides. I left open so I can get in to clean glass in my very narrow tank. All I know, is when I started this tank, and was sweating everything soooooo much, measuring all the time, and worrying, it seemed as if I couldn't get it stable. Now, that I have relaxed, and am not trying as hard, not adding PH buffer like LFS told me too, ect ect ect......it is very stable, and things are doing great. Go figure huh? lol
Yea, my ph is also considered low, 8.0 another thing everyone had me all freaked out about. But I have seen several amazing tanks where this is the case, and stable 8.0 is waaaaay better than bouncing around. Sooooooo it seems for me too.
I DO realize, when I get some stony corals that they will consume calcium, and I will have had to have decided ahead of time, how I will deal with all of that. Hoping for the simple inexpensive method for that as well....lol. A friend told me, when I was spinning in circles trying to do everything right, that simple is better, and I think I am agreeing.
I put some pics in gallery. I will update when I get the lights and some more interesting stuff spread out in there, and not just on the ends of the tanks rocks.....looks silly and people ask me why in the heck I don't spread it around. I have to explain about lights, and tell them, if it bothers them that much I am taking money donations for my lights..lol.
Not sure you understood, there is an 695 gpg pump on each end of the tank. TWO of these each pushing water from their own end.
I assumed my gravel, rocks, and 2" of CC where doing the work of growing enough good my bacteria. Technically I don't even have enough rock to do a proper job according to most folks. I rinse my filter pads in fresh sink water every other week now too, because I had not thought of them as sources of anything else except catching some misc junk, the Millenium hob mainly for creating flow, oxygen, (future tiny refuge for some mangroves)... I find when I rinse them out, there isn't much stuff on them really, same for my sponges. I am thinking it must be due to my Remora pro skimmer and box catching most of it. I have two power heads on the ends aimed at the front lower 1/3 of the tank. I don't see much of anything settle on the bottom, just keeps going in the current. I worry about the behind parts a bit, but unless it lands IN a rock stuff just seems to keep on floating till fish eat it, or skimmer gets it. I know I am pushing my bio load. I was changing religiously once a week, had family problems and went to every other week a few months ago, and was aaaaall worried, and shocked to find Nitrates at 0. Bought another different test and had same results. So keeping it there for now, with my eye on it. I will not be stretching my water changes any further, and if need be, will go back to once a week.
As to there being low oxygen areas, I spose...but my rocks are mostly stuffed down into the CC for stability sorta ON my UGF plate with the CC piled around them. Maybe under the rubble yea... And I was stirring it up where I could in the open spaces in the front and sides. I left open so I can get in to clean glass in my very narrow tank. All I know, is when I started this tank, and was sweating everything soooooo much, measuring all the time, and worrying, it seemed as if I couldn't get it stable. Now, that I have relaxed, and am not trying as hard, not adding PH buffer like LFS told me too, ect ect ect......it is very stable, and things are doing great. Go figure huh? lol
Yea, my ph is also considered low, 8.0 another thing everyone had me all freaked out about. But I have seen several amazing tanks where this is the case, and stable 8.0 is waaaaay better than bouncing around. Sooooooo it seems for me too.
I DO realize, when I get some stony corals that they will consume calcium, and I will have had to have decided ahead of time, how I will deal with all of that. Hoping for the simple inexpensive method for that as well....lol. A friend told me, when I was spinning in circles trying to do everything right, that simple is better, and I think I am agreeing.
I put some pics in gallery. I will update when I get the lights and some more interesting stuff spread out in there, and not just on the ends of the tanks rocks.....looks silly and people ask me why in the heck I don't spread it around. I have to explain about lights, and tell them, if it bothers them that much I am taking money donations for my lights..lol.
Isn't amazing how worried "everybody else" is about "your" tank?:lol: I think the patience factor is very valid. I went through the same thing, and I am much more relaxed now. I don't use a third of the additives and "stuff" I bought when I started.
The Anthelia crashed on the third day after introduction, and my wife was sure that the starfish was eating them or something. She's the paranoid type anyway, and doesn't know diddly about the tank.
I just looked at them and said "HUMPH". Three days later they were twice the size they had been in the store. Two weeks after they are twice as big again. "Weeds" > pretty weeds! Patience my freind. > barryhc
edit: ooPS, Your flow and frugal feeding are serving you well. Still, even 1400 GPH in that tank, evenly dispersed through the gravel is going to appear "miniscule". That flow rate across your entire bed area, is a vertical flow rate of 5/32" per second. I'm quite the "math-guy".
Turn off all your pumps ( and skimmer ) except for the RUGF, and put in a few flakes or whatever food. Then watch, you will see what I mean. The only point here is the slow movement of water that it represents, and how easily low oxygen areas could develop in this "low-flow".
Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not criticizing or reccomending anything. Just trying to get a handle on how your Nitrate reduction is working. It is obviously working well.
The Anthelia crashed on the third day after introduction, and my wife was sure that the starfish was eating them or something. She's the paranoid type anyway, and doesn't know diddly about the tank.
I just looked at them and said "HUMPH". Three days later they were twice the size they had been in the store. Two weeks after they are twice as big again. "Weeds" > pretty weeds! Patience my freind. > barryhc
edit: ooPS, Your flow and frugal feeding are serving you well. Still, even 1400 GPH in that tank, evenly dispersed through the gravel is going to appear "miniscule". That flow rate across your entire bed area, is a vertical flow rate of 5/32" per second. I'm quite the "math-guy".
Turn off all your pumps ( and skimmer ) except for the RUGF, and put in a few flakes or whatever food. Then watch, you will see what I mean. The only point here is the slow movement of water that it represents, and how easily low oxygen areas could develop in this "low-flow".
Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not criticizing or reccomending anything. Just trying to get a handle on how your Nitrate reduction is working. It is obviously working well.
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Paul, you are sort of the expert here, you have done this the longest of anyone. What I'm trying to say here is that the highest possible flow is probably not the best thing for RUGF. I'm just trying to learn, and your tank is a great example.
I will fall back to listening unless some one has a question. I hope I have not disturbed the thread.
Happy Reef Keeping > barryhc
lillibirdy
New member
Holy cow Barry, your ARE quite the math guy! I am gonna have to write that down somewhere! I don't mind your input at all, I am trying to learn too. Sometimes some of the technical stuff goes over my head, I might have to ask you to dummy it down for me......lol.
It's so interesting that both Paul B's and my UGF rubbly tank are both doing their job just fine, and our flow is very different. He is my inspiration, and we must both be doing something right in spite of the neysayers...lol.
It's so interesting that both Paul B's and my UGF rubbly tank are both doing their job just fine, and our flow is very different. He is my inspiration, and we must both be doing something right in spite of the neysayers...lol.
You know, only just recently, many knowledgeable people have been explaining about how denitrification is occuring in aerobic areas, and/or with aerobic bacteria. Most of this is being used to debunk sandbeds, and I don't have a side, I'm sure you can tell.
Still the information is interesting. This is very recent, and I haven't had a chance yet, to research and verify, but I will.
You are quite right how interesting it is that the far different flows are both working so well.
There is a huge debate going on elsewhere about introducing corals a few at a time, VS all at once. How could that happen?:lol:
I would go for only 3 or 4 at a time myself, but even with a few, how do we know who the "culprit" is, if toxic warfare "breaks out"?
Paul B. Would be the man to ask I think. What kind of corals are you looking into?
Best, > barryhc
Whaledriver
New member
I think anytime the word gravel replaces rubble in your thinking you are setting yourself up for trouble. I would not try this with anything smaller than 1 inch in size. You might also glue sand or paint the under gravel plate to hide it.
lillibirdy
New member
Whaledriver, not sure what your responding to. I have both rice krispie sized CC and 1-2" rubble pile in center. It's not been trouble so far, working good for me.
lillibirdy
New member
OMG!!!!!!!!! I just realized I was looking at the wrong box to find out my flow for my RUGF......talk about brain dead. It is the penguin reverse flow powerhead at 175 gph that is on the RUGF. I was looking at the box for my power head that is just for flow.
Wow, that is quite a difference, sorry guys, gonna go fix my old post if it lets me...
Wow, that is quite a difference, sorry guys, gonna go fix my old post if it lets me...
Paul B
Premium Member
Lillibirdy, 175gph sounds more like it. I ran my UG filter faster for many years but the nitrate was always up around 10. I have a theory that slower is better because at a slower rate there will be more areas in between the gravel grains for anerobic bacteria to grow. it is only "my" theory and all I can base it on is my personal experience. You can't read about this stuff because no one uses a reverse UG filter. I use them because if you read all the problems people have with different systems you will know why.
Barryhc, about adding corals, it is a crap shoot. I don't think it matters if you add them all at once or one at a time. There will always be chemical warfare and the type, size and health of the specimins will determine the result. There are certain corals I can't keep, it is probably because of the other corals I am keeping. Certain types of corals I have kept for years then for some reason, a different type will grow large and the others will wither.
People think it is their husbandry, water parameters, pH, lighting copepods, etc. and that does of course play a role but if you think you can keep all types of corals just because you have $10,000 worth of techno wizzardry, you are mistaken.
Whaledriver, I have no clue.
Here is a coral that I have for quite a few years, for the first five years or so the thing was about 1/2" tall and would not grow. All of a sudden within a week or two it grew like crazy. I don't think it's because of my good looks.
Have a great day.
Paul
I'm talking about the green thing in the front. (I can't remember the names of anything)
Barryhc, about adding corals, it is a crap shoot. I don't think it matters if you add them all at once or one at a time. There will always be chemical warfare and the type, size and health of the specimins will determine the result. There are certain corals I can't keep, it is probably because of the other corals I am keeping. Certain types of corals I have kept for years then for some reason, a different type will grow large and the others will wither.
People think it is their husbandry, water parameters, pH, lighting copepods, etc. and that does of course play a role but if you think you can keep all types of corals just because you have $10,000 worth of techno wizzardry, you are mistaken.
Whaledriver, I have no clue.
Here is a coral that I have for quite a few years, for the first five years or so the thing was about 1/2" tall and would not grow. All of a sudden within a week or two it grew like crazy. I don't think it's because of my good looks.
Have a great day.
Paul
I'm talking about the green thing in the front. (I can't remember the names of anything)
