Hawaiian vs Xmas island Flame Angel debate

[alikatoes]

Aloha,

I was just wondering if anybody wanted to chime in on the Flame angel debate.

It is said that Hawaiian Flame angels are brighter than Xmas island flame angels. From what I have gathered by asking around locally, Hawaiian flames have smaller black bars, thus tend to be more red. It has also come to my attention that genetic testing has NOT shown that they are two different species.

What do you think, or what have you heard?

 

[Rothie]

From what I have read,the Hawaiin has fewer stripes and is redder in color-as opposed to orange.

 

[BTTRFLYGRL]

I don't think they are different species...the color may vary due to location and the Hawaiian Flames are more hardy probably due to better catching/shipping procedures

 

[RGBMatt]

You've caught a few Hawaiian flames, haven't you Alika?

Most Christmas flames are yellowish orange on the sides, and have thick black bars. Hawaiian flames usually have very thin black bars, and red on the sides with only a hint of orange.

But, it can be kind of variable. Some Hawaiian flames have bigger stripes than others, and some Christmas flames are less orange than others. It can be really hard to tell sometimes.

There are other regional flame angel variants too. Flames from the Marquesas have almost no bars and a weird black spot near the front.

 

[RGBMatt]

To make things more clear, some photos!

Here is a Hawaiian flame angel. As you can see, the sides are bright red and the black bars are fairly thin:

And this is a typical Christmas Island flame angel, with yellowish orange sides and thick bars:

You can't tell by just the black bars, though - many Christmas flames have narrow bars similar to the Hawaiian ones, but you can still see the distinctive orange sides:

 

[pactrop]

I think there is a difference in the HI flames and the Xmas ones.

But I think it is just in the color. I have seen many Xmas and they have all kinds of bars, some of them even go by the name tiger flame because the bars are all scattered and short. the color is the main difference. the HI flames are not known to have the yellowish color.

Good post Matt.

 

[pactrop]

Oh yea,

congrats on catching one today.

the Xmas flames are also pretty common. the HI flames are really rare.

 

[massman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7746470#post7746470 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pactrop
Oh yea,

congrats on catching one today.

the Xmas flames are also pretty common. the HI flames are really rare.

Really rare around all the islands, or only where you guys dive?

 

[pactrop]

around all the islands in Hawaii. You won't see too many true Hawaiian flames on the market.

Sometimes they call them HI flames because they bought them from HI.

 

[alikatoes]

I have a True HWN flame right now, that RGBMATT caught. I also have a few X mas island specimens. I will post pics in a few days and we will see.

Anybody else with pics of True HWN flame angels please post pics.

 

[pactrop]

Great idea, I think people will trip out when they see the difference.

 

[massman]

How do these guys compare with Vanuatu flames?
(These are the most common ones here)

 

[copps]

Hey fellas, this is a tough debate for anyone outside of Hawaii to have... I travel to Oahu regularly on business and dive, but it's nowhere near the amount you guys do... people don't realize how rare flames are in Hawaii! Also, the point mentioned earlier about Christmas Island flames being bought from Hawaii, and subsequently listed as Hawaiian is rampant... what's funnier is when you see Hawaiian goldflakes and Emperors (as many of the wholesale lists show). For anyone to contribute a pic of a true Hawaiian flame it would have to have been bought direct from HI... Anyway, I'll be out there in October again, and the wife and I are hitting Kauai and Maui before I have to work... any tips or good places would be welcomed fellas... I was planning on meeting up with Brian Greene, who I've spoken with, but he'll be away...

Anyway, why you HI guys are in here, what can you add about the blue potters variant, or potters/flame hybrids... ever seen any?

Copps

 

[RGBMatt]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7751569#post7751569 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by massman
How do these guys compare with Vanuatu flames?
(These are the most common ones here)

I've never seen one from Vanuatu (I don't think we get many fish from there). Does anybody have pics? Most of the fish from Christmas Island are shipped through Hawaii, so consequently that's where almost all flame angels in local shops are from.

Hey fellas, this is a tough debate for anyone outside of Hawaii to have... I travel to Oahu regularly on business and dive, but it's nowhere near the amount you guys do... people don't realize how rare flames are in Hawaii!

It's true - flame angels are incredibly rare. I see them maybe once or twice a month at most. IMO they should be worth a lot more than they are, given the effort it takes to find them.

Actually, some areas are better than others for flames. I know one spot where I can reliably see one or two every time, but the way the reef is built there makes them impossible to catch.

Also, the point mentioned earlier about Christmas Island flames being bought from Hawaii, and subsequently listed as Hawaiian is rampant... what's funnier is when you see Hawaiian goldflakes and Emperors (as many of the wholesale lists show). For anyone to contribute a pic of a true Hawaiian flame it would have to have been bought direct from HI...

We do occasionally have emperor angels in Hawaii - there's one living near the Aloha Tower Marketplace that you can see sometimes from the pier, along with a large blue tang. That one was probably dumped from somebody's aquarium, but a couple of specimens were collected in the '40s before the trade started up.

FYI, the fish in the top pic of my last post was caught by myself and never left the island - it's a bona fide Hawaiian fish.

Anyway, I'll be out there in October again, and the wife and I are hitting Kauai and Maui before I have to work... any tips or good places would be welcomed fellas... I was planning on meeting up with Brian Greene, who I've spoken with, but he'll be away...

Diving spots or land spots? There is a lot to choose from...

Anyway, why you HI guys are in here, what can you add about the blue potters variant, or potters/flame hybrids... ever seen any?

Never seen a blue Potter's or any hybrids. I imagine the blue Potter's probably came from a mutation that won't be seen again soon. Apparently the Blue Harbor specimen came from Kona, so that'd be the place to look - maybe some of its relatives are still around.

 

[copps]

Thanks for the response Matt... interesting about the emperor there... I remember an old Hawaii fishes book lists emperors in the angelfish section... It's unfortunate that nowadays we'll never know which ones are true waifs... There's a black tang that's lived in Hanauma Bay for years detailed here...

Interestingly the original Nahacki angel was caught in Hawaii by Tony Nahacki... the only one ever found outside of Johnston Atoll...

In Kauai and Maui I'm looking for just really anything great to do... any good diving spots or dive outfits... maybe a PM would do to not derail the thread... I'd appreciate it... thanks...

Copps

 

[BRISK495]

tagging along. heading to Maui in February 07....maybe I will see one snorkeling? What I read so far is they are rare...

 

[Sheol]

Color variations due to limited gene pool & inbreeding? Maybe like those H. cilaris of St. Paul's rocks in the atlantic? Interesting topic..

Matthew

 

[RGBMatt]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7754766#post7754766 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
Interestingly the original Nahacki angel was caught in Hawaii by Tony Nahacki... the only one ever found outside of Johnston Atoll...

Many fish have been described from specimens found outside their range. In fact, the Masked Angel holotype was caught at 80' off of Magic Island on Oahu! IIRC Nahacky might have come up with this one also (or maybe the second specimen, from West Oahu at 140').

It's intriguing to imagine a population of Nahackyi existing in deep water somewhere in Hawaii.

In Kauai and Maui I'm looking for just really anything great to do... any good diving spots or dive outfits... maybe a PM would do to not derail the thread... I'd appreciate it... thanks...

Don't know much about Kauai or Maui personally, other than that the Niihau dives are supposed to be amazing. Nearly all of my diving experience is on Oahu - feel free to PM me if you want.

tagging along. heading to Maui in February 07....maybe I will see one snorkeling? What I read so far is they are rare...

Doubtful. Flame angels generally live in deeper water than you'd want to snorkel (40-100'), and are really difficult to find unless you know what their habitat looks like. Even then, they tend to stay inside the reef and are easy to miss if you're not looking really hard.

Even Potter's angels (very common) usually live out of range of snorkelers. Expect to see lots of tangs, wrasses, and moorish idols.