HELP Another Ich question Purple Tang Outbreak

[httorihanzo]

Long drawn out explanation but quest I pose at the end is "œIf he isn't eating, will the cupramine treatment make him feel good enough to begin eating again? "œ

Before I start, know I have read for hours about ich and about the QT process and seemed to find nothing but Inconclusiveness to if you can ever completely eradicate Ich. I respect everyone's opinion of the QT process and to let you know upfront I did not QT in this case. I've transferred over to a new tank in the past month and sold a sailfin and naso that were ich free before adding any fish to my new setup.

I've recently picked up a beautiful purple tang. He was eating both Mysis and Nori, as much as you'd put in the tank. He did phenomenally for the first few days. After only a few hours he was king and loved swimming in around all the rockwork and in the flow of the tank. Up until yesterday I provided a full clip of red, green, brown seaweed (Rods) around the clock. I went to work without filing it yesterday and ended up working late. When I got home he was covered and I immediately fed both seaweed and a Mysis/brine/spirulina cube. He barely nibbled at the cube and would swim up to my clip, stare, and swim away.

To my main question, I have a 55g QT setup that has been cycling for a few months now. I am prepared to move him and treat with cupramine but it is my experience (not robust) that when a fish with ich stops eating there's not much you can do. I know as long as he is eating he can fight it off temporarily.

If he isn't eating, will the cupramine treatment make him feel good enough to begin eating again so he can fight it off?

 

[MrTuskfish]

There is plenty of evidence, from real experts, that shows ich can be completely eradicated. None of the methods are easy, though. There is no real argument, among real experts, that QT is vital either. Just a bunch of anecdotal accounts. I know of only one person who I would ask for advice that doesn't QT everything and have never read any serious literature on our hobby that doesn't say the same. Reading countless anecdotal stories is really not a way to learn. Find out who the pros are and listen to them.

If this fish went from perfect to covered with spots and not eating in one day; I'd suspect velvet. Refusing to eat is often an early sign of copper intolerance and its important to get them eating before copper treatment. I'd Google '"marine Velvet" and see if this may be what your fish has. Copper is the main cure option for velvet, but velvet is hard to cure, even when caught early. A formalin bath can provide some temporary relief for velvet (not ich) and just may get him eating. Velvet or ich; all fish need ti be in the QT and treated ASAP.
A partial answer to toour final question: "If he isn't eating, will the cupramine treatment make him feel good enough to begin eating again so he can fight it off?"

Fish cannot "fight off" ich. Some fish can develop temporary immunity, but it comes back. You sound very reluctant to cure your fish, and your entire system, of parasites. This is a certain way to lose all of your fish and give you a bad taste for the hobby in general. But; many folks think they can beat parasites in an easier, softer way; that's why so much SW hobby stuff is on Craigslist. .

 

[MrTuskfish]

There is plenty of evidence, from real experts, that shows ich can be completely eradicated. None of the methods are easy, though. There is no real argument, among real experts, that QT is vital either. Just a bunch of anecdotal accounts. I know of only one person who I would ask for advice that doesn't QT everything and have never read any serious literature on our hobby that doesn't say the same. Reading countless anecdotal stories is really not a way to learn. Find out who the pros are and listen to them.

If this fish went from perfect to covered with spots and not eating in one day; I'd suspect velvet. Refusing to eat is often an early sign of copper intolerance and its important to get them eating before copper treatment. I'd Google '"marine Velvet" and see if this may be what your fish has. Copper is the main cure option for velvet, but velvet is hard to cure, even when caught early. A formalin bath can provide some temporary relief for velvet (not ich) and just may get him eating. Velvet or ich; all fish need ti be in the QT and treated ASAP.
A partial answer to toour final question: "If he isn't eating, will the cupramine treatment make him feel good enough to begin eating again so he can fight it off?"

Fish cannot "fight off" ich. Some fish can develop temporary immunity, but it comes back. You sound very reluctant to cure your fish, and your entire system, of parasites. This is a certain way to lose all of your fish and give you a bad taste for the hobby in general. But; many folks think they can beat parasites in an easier, softer way; that's why so much SW hobby stuff is on Craigslist. .

 

[httorihanzo]

Would you agree this is ich?

 

[httorihanzo]

Would you agree this is ich?

 

[httorihanzo]

He has been moved to QT with cupramine. He doesnt look good but made it through the night. I am not reluctant to cure my fish, I was reluctant to cause him more stress. I am not reluctant to cure my tank, I am reluctant to disassemble the entire th to QT my wrasse and goby because I know if I dont QT them also it would be pointless.

 

[longranger]

I think all of us, Newbs like me and very experienced people like Mr Tuskfish feel your pain. The larger your system and valuable your critters the more devastating a pathogen can be. Catching, let alone successfully treating numerous fish without most of them dieing anyway is a horrible but common experience. I experienced it once in my 110G system. The only defense we have for most pathogens is prevention by QT with treatment of all new fish for common pathogens before they go into the DT. Experienced members of this forum say this again and again only because they have not found safe shortcuts around this practice. Without QT you will have heartbreaking losses, often sooner than later. Great water quality, UV, superior nutrition etc.. all help our fishes immune system but if a virulent strain on Crypto, Velvet etc.. gets hold all your fish are at very high risk until every one is treated and the tank has the appropriate fallow period. Taking that one step further QT of corals, new live rock and even macroalgae may be a very good idea if you have a large DT full of rare and beloved fish. We all hear anecdotes about tanks stable for many years without these measures but they are most certainly the exception to the rule.

Sorry for being a preachy Newb but as an MD and soft hearted lover of all critters, even bristleworms, LOL it hurts to see fellow reefers work so hard and spend a lot of $$ only to experience heartache again and again.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I think all of us, Newbs like me and very experienced people like Mr Tuskfish feel your pain. The larger your system and valuable your critters the more devastating a pathogen can be. Catching, let alone successfully treating numerous fish without most of them dieing anyway is a horrible but common experience. I experienced it once in my 110G system. The only defense we have for most pathogens is prevention by QT with treatment of all new fish for common pathogens before they go into the DT. Experienced members of this forum say this again and again only because they have not found safe shortcuts around this practice. Without QT you will have heartbreaking losses, often sooner than later. Great water quality, UV, superior nutrition etc.. all help our fishes immune system but if a virulent strain on Crypto, Velvet etc.. gets hold all your fish are at very high risk until every one is treated and the tank has the appropriate fallow period. Taking that one step further QT of corals, new live rock and even macroalgae may be a very good idea if you have a large DT full of rare and beloved fish. We all hear anecdotes about tanks stable for many years without these measures but they are most certainly the exception to the rule.

Sorry for being a preachy Newb but as an MD and soft hearted lover of all critters, even bristleworms, LOL it hurts to see fellow reefers work so hard and spend a lot of $$ only to experience heartache again and again.

Very well put! Thanks. I'm starting to get a bit snarky and probably need a break from the disease forum and there are some great volunteers active on this forum....always have been. I'm glad you mentioned virulent strains of parasites; I've felt for a while that strains parasites are developing some immunity to some treatments. I know of a few other folks, whose knowledge far exceeds mine, that feel the same way. One example: hypo for ich. I really think it should be dropped as a possible cure for ich and more research and emphasis on the quinine drugs. I think hypo's failure rate is due to possible resistant strains of ich and a lot of hobbyist error. Quick and easy answers are in demand now, and fish diseases/parasites just don't respond to our desire to get things done quickly. Not blasting anyone, this is just our culture now.

 

[MrTuskfish]

He has been moved to QT with cupramine. He doesnt look good but made it through the night. I am not reluctant to cure my fish, I was reluctant to cause him more stress. I am not reluctant to cure my tank, I am reluctant to disassemble the entire th to QT my wrasse and goby because I know if I dont QT them also it would be pointless.

I'm not good with pics, This fish seems to have some real scaring in addition to the parasites. I just assume its ich; but i can't tell some cases of velvet from ich in most pics. Wow, if this guy got this bad overnight, who knows whats going on. When a fish has a bad case of ich, or anything else; the parasite is causing more "stress' than any treatment method. Copper is a stressful med, but it works. Ich is a stressful parasite, but it kills. IMO, "stress' is the most over-used term in the hobby.

I see you're using Cupramine copper. At what level? What brand of test kit are you using? How are you handling ammonia? Here's some great info on Cupramine , the FAQ offer vital info. (http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Cupramine.html) SeaChem also has great tech-support; I call them often. 1-888-seachem. I hope you can save this fish. PTs are tough and it doesn't take a fish long to get some relief from copper----assuming he's strong enough to handle it. He may not eat for a while, but that's not a big deal, yet.

 

[httorihanzo]

Thanks for the words of advise all. It is appricaated. I dosed to 0.5 mg/L per the instructions. I do not have a test kit but my LFS is a mile away and I get my water tested there. Ammonia, Nitrites, Nitrates are test for in addition to copper and are handled with water changes.

He deteriorated so quickly that after the move he’s been on the bottom only fluttering for a few seconds at a time. I’ve hear of fish coming back after treatment but I feel he is a little far gone to have any hope. Surprising to me that after just 1 day of showing signs he got this bad.

I am preparing myself to QT all fish in my tank. I am worried about being able to keep up with the copper and ammonia levels etc. for a period of 8 weeks or more. Last thing I want to do is cause more stress (by doing it poorly) in fish not showing signs of illness right now but I understand that if I don’t I may never be able to properly house anything. My QT is 55 gallons and I have 2 clowns, a goby, and a yellow wrasse that would be in QT. How much bio load is that for the volume? Are we talking daily water changes?

In the mean time I am watching and making sure everyone else is eating and looking healthy.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Get a good HOB filter for your QT. I really like AquaClear. Keep the ceramic and sponge media from the AC somewhere in the flow/sump of your main tank for 3+ weeks. This media is now seeded with aerobic bacteria and will instantly cycle a QT filter and that will take care of ammonia. Keep all fish in the QT for 10+ weeks while the DT is fishless.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Ich is a completely defeated foe.

I no longer think about ich. I stick to a QT routine that works.

Close to 30 years without a case of ich.

ERADICATION

First, one must not waver on the objective of eradication; that is to killoff and allow to dieoff every single ich organism in your system and guard against every single drop of water the enter into your system so that ich does not exist in your system.

This is the only correct approach.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Why do ich continue to cause so much problem to so many newbies?

I can think of the following reasons:

1. Not willing to accept, don't understand, that some agents (ich and oodinum etc) can be eradicated and needs to be eradicated, while other agents (bacteria and viruses) cannot be eradicated and need not be eradicated. The difference is in the extent of impact of closed system and the agents reproductive cycle. Ich on its free will leave the host; bacteria do not. Ich is not a life and death struggle between agent and host in the ocean; bactera is. Enhancing immunity is not a factor for the former but is for the latter.

2. Unwilling to cycle for QT in advance. Still not completely at ease with the simplicity of cycling the medium for QT.

3. LR in QT and always thinking about long term ecology.

 

[triggreef]

I've been doing TTM for the past several weeks, and all fish are doing fine. Even my fiji blue devil that got himself stuck in the siphon hose screen on one of the transfers. They have been living in 32g trash cans for quite some time, with nothing more than a bubbler, heater, and some pvc pipes to hide in, in the garage. There is a flame angel, dogface puffer, 2 large maroon clowns, a falco hawkfish, and a cleaner wrasse. After 3 days I don't get any ammonia unless I feed heavy, and even then its <.25 and that's what amquel is for.

My point is for so few fish your bio load should be easily manageable by frequent small water changes.

Trap your other fish to get them out of your DT. It may take some time but you will get them. It took me a week to trap a red coris. He's being treated separate with copper.

The hardest part is keeping your display fishless for 10 weeks. Inverts are surprisingly boring by themselves. IMO

 

[MrTuskfish]

Ich is a completely defeated foe.

I no longer think about ich. I stick to a QT routine that works.

Close to 30 years without a case of ich.

ERADICATION

First, one must not waver on the objective of eradication; that is to killoff and allow to dieoff every single ich organism in your system and guard against every single drop of water the enter into your system so that ich does not exist in your system.

This is the only correct approach.

I agree completely. I can't imagine introducing a new fish into a system that was known to contain ich. FWIW; I think many folks think they see ich ; when, in fact, its something else. All the accounts of ich coming and going make little sense. Some fish may develop some temporary immunity to some strains of ich; but to have ich appear and reappear on just a fish or two defies all logic. Keeping stress low (whatever that means), vitamins, garlic (the magic elixer) etc., are not going to keep ich from exploding into a nightmare.

 

[wooden_reefer]

After 3 days I don't get any ammonia unless I feed heavy, and even then its <.25 and that's what amquel is for.

My point is for so few fish your bio load should be easily manageable by frequent small water changes.

IMO

How can bioload be manageable by frequent small water change?

I say definitely bioload CANNOT be manageable by FREQUENT SMALL WC.

It is just a matter of math and also of source of ammonia thru decay. If you do 25% WC, 75% ammonia is left. If you cannot remove all decayable matters in the tank, WC means little.

With impaired nitrification (when I have to use a drug that harms nitrification bacteria), ammonia might be better managed by less frequent and massive WC. The math favors this.

If I have to go without nitrification and when I cannot use Amquel or Prime, I do daily 100% WC. I transfer the fish so no decayable matter is included to generate ammonia.


WC is PITA and ammonia is very compromising to the health of the fish. Always have robust nitrification in QT whenever possible. It is usually possible if I do not have to use a drug that harms nitrification bacteria in QT. Often this means the fish not having bacterial infection while I eradicate ich, so I always use UV during ich eradication not for ich directly.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I generally do not have to do any WC, none at all, thru-out the whole 10-12 weeks in QT to eradicate ich.

 

[triggreef]

4 tiny fish in a 55g shouldnt produce much ammonia unless he's feeding alot.

I would think its going to be a bare bottom tank that he should be able to syphon and remove any and all detritus fairly easy at each water change.

perhaps frequent NOT SO SMALL water changes would be better? but I would think it should be quite manageable.

Back in the day of using fish for the purposes of cycling, I probably would have started with a similar amount of fish as he's talking about.

 

[jamesbaur13]

I wouldn't do copper treatment on any fish. Ever.

Read up on tank transfer stickies, and I would start with that for treatment (basically, every 3 days you move the fish to a sanitized environment).

Do Not Net. Use a Clear container to capture the fish. Drain the water prior to capturing the fish to not give him a vertical means of escaping. Basically, when you catch him you want it to seem as benign as possible. Stress is a hugely counterproductive.

Your best bet is to use 2 20g tanks for the tank transfer. So that the tanks/equipt can completely dry out.

If you can not use 2 20g tanks, then you can remove the fish on day 3, transfer him to a bucket while you clean/sanitize the 20g tank. Scalding hot tap water exposed to all surfaces will work, but realize you wont be able to 100% eradicate the ick using this method. I would not use chemicals with this method, just tap water. Rinse all surfaces down with RO/DI when you are done and dry all surfaces. Fill the tank and transfer him from the bucket to the tank.

Realize, the source of the sickness is in your display tank.

The fish is much easier to cure.

I'd advise reading up on fallow periods for ick.

If your fish is to survive you need to get him healthy and eating, this is the most benign way of doing so that I know of. He will likely be 60% spot free by the time of the first transfer (3 days) and 90% spot free by the time for the 2nd (6 days) without the use of copper or any other med.

 

[httorihanzo]

I thank everyone for their points. My qt does have some sand in it, would I be better off with a brand new 20L. I could transfer my HOB that's been running for months with poly.