HELP - Losing most of our 40BR population, bit by painful bit

[MatAndPatti]

About 2 months ago various corals in our 40BR setup started to die off. At first we had attributed it to a possible return of flatworms and treated with FWE accordingly. (We had treated for flatworms maybe 1-2 months prior with no ill effects, so I don't suspect any type of issues related to this re-treatment). After a couple of weeks it became evident that worms were not the issue. 2-3 very large water changes over the following weeks seemed to be no help. Things will seem to be alright for a few days, then we notice another piece starting to show skeleton. We've lost blastos, acans, chalices, you name it. Palys and zoas seem to be hanging in there for now. Lately our Hollywood Stunner chalice, which has been fairly bulletproof, is starting to show some tissue loss in various places.

This is driving me nuts. It's not a sudden loss at all, this has been over several weeks, a piece or two at a time. It's pretty discouraging, and I'm starting to understand folks who crash and quit the hobby. :headwally:

The tank is a 40BR with a 20-long sump. It's been up for a little over 2 years. Light is a Maxspect Razor. We haven't changed anything regarding lighting or equipment in quite a while.

A Triton test didn't seem to turn up any smoking gun as I was hoping it would. Below are the only 3 elements which came up as non-green, but from what I have read, none seem to be of concern. I would appreciate it if someone could tell me if I should be worrying about these:
Element / Analysis / Setpoint / Deviation
Br / 86.00 mg/l / 62.00 mg/l / 24
Li / 661.00 μg/l / 200.00 μg/l / 461
Mo / 0.00 μg/l / 12.00 μg/l / -12

Perhaps coincident to these problems has been the emergence of a pretty good case of what I think is bryopsis. It's not what I would call an epidemic level, but it's definitely annoying. The algae is not growing on the pieces that have died back, so I don't think it's crowding the corals out. I have some Reef Flux but have hesitated to use it because I'm concerned it could cause a complete tank crash. There is also a small amount of bubble algae, but not what I'd consider to be a problem.

We also have some aiptasia, but none of it is located in a spot where could be stinging pieces that we have lost.

The only tank inhabitants are 2 clown fish and a small population of mini brittle stars.

I run a BRS mini-reactor with mixed GFO and lignite carbon. We dose B-ionic 2 part to keep Alk and Ca in a descent range. Salt is about 75% Reef Crystals / 25% Instant Ocean (been mixing for a while because we've been transitioning from IO to RC, but we've been using this ratio for several months at this point).

Other stats from our last water test:
SG: 1.025
pH: ~8.1
Alk: 8.2 dKH
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0 (API test kit)
Nitrate: 4 ppm
Ca: 440 ppm
Phosphate: 0 ppm
Mag: 1400 ppm

Please, any kind of suggestions would be appreciated! At this point I'm worried about changing anything too quickly, but it's obvious that something needs to be "fixed"... I just don't know what!

 

[Justintegra]

Any chance there is electrical current in the water from a pump or heater? Low enough you may not notice it sticking your hand in, but enough to hurt the corals?

 

[Tripod1404]

HELP - Losing most of our 40BR population, bit by painful bit

Your corals are starved of phosphate. Stop using GFO and also drop alk to ~7.5dkh.


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[homer1475]

Your corals are starved of phosphate. Stop using GFO and also drop alk to ~7.5dkh.


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+1 This!


Had the same issue a while back. PO4 and NO3 were both 0 and was slowly loosing corals. Raised both to just detectable levels and all my corals recovered and are actually thriving.



All 0's on your test kit is not a good thing.



When I first started in this hobby I had a 30G biocube with levels I would rather not share, but lets just say that NO3 and PO4 were both VERY HIGH. All my corals thrived and grew exponentially. Moved to a new tank where I told myself I will keep nutrients in check, kept everything at 0's and thats when the same corals that were thriving started to slowly loose flesh and die. Fast forward a couple years and I've learned that all 0's are a bad thing. I now keep just a hint of both(NO3 .25 to 1 - PO4 I keep around .025) and my corals are thriving again.

 

[mcgyvr]

Your corals are starved of phosphate. Stop using GFO and also drop alk to ~7.5dkh.

+2..
Thats the smoking gun I see right away..

Very common now for people to run GFO when they don't need it and cause starvation problems..
Phosphate is a beneficial nutrient needed for all marine life..

Just like fertilizer for your lawn. Too little is just as bad as too much..

 

[homer1475]

Just realized who the poster is!


By the way, ever get that biocube I sold you setup?

 

[brett559]

Same issue for me. Lost a HUGE bubble gum monster chalice. Water had ZERO nutrients. Pulled Phosguard and doubled feeding. Tank is better than ever.

 

[MatAndPatti]

Any chance there is electrical current in the water from a pump or heater? Low enough you may not notice it sticking your hand in, but enough to hurt the corals?

Thanks for the idea! I had meant to check on this a while back and completely forgot about it! Tonight I measured about 22 VAC between ground and the tank. Based on this thread I removed our grounding probe, but it seems like anything under 50 VAC is not considered of concern. I don't think that was the issue, but worth checking!

 

[MatAndPatti]

Your corals are starved of phosphate. Stop using GFO and also drop alk to ~7.5dkh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks Tripod1401! I've already killed the reactor, so no more GFO running.

I'm confused about your comment regarding dropping alk to 7.5. We used to have our alk in that range, but have been increasing it slowly through 2 part dosing. Everything I have read seems to indicated a range of 8-11 dKH is preferred. Is that not the case? Does alk somehow affect phosphate? Just trying to understand!

 

[MatAndPatti]

Survey says... Phosphates (or lack thereof)!

Survey says... Phosphates (or lack thereof)!

Thanks again for all of the responses! :beer:

So it sounds like the consensus is that our 0 phosphates is likely the culprit. I have ceased running the GFO, but I've got some followup questions...

I've always read 0 phosphates in our tanks. I always thought that this was because any free phosphates are consumed by algae... Part of the reason I have been running GFO is to try to out complete the algae so that it doesn't get worse. How do I increase my phosphates without making my current bryopsis problem much worse?

We've run GFO for quite a long time without any issues nearly this bad (although I admit we have had ups and downs with some pieces, mostly acans, which could have been the same ). Could it be that the increasing bryopsis finally tipped the balance in stripping the water of nutrients?

 

[MatAndPatti]

Just realized who the poster is!


By the way, ever get that biocube I sold you setup?

Hey Homer! How's things going? Yeah, we've got the 29 up and running. As a matter of fact, I've been using it as a bit of a safe haven for a few pieces as we go through these issues with our 40.

Sorry I never got a build thread up for it... things are always just too busy. I don't even really get to read as much on here as I'd like to, especially this time of year.

 

[Tripod1404]

Thanks again for all of the responses! :beer:

So it sounds like the consensus is that our 0 phosphates is likely the culprit. I have ceased running the GFO, but I've got some followup questions...

I've always read 0 phosphates in our tanks. I always thought that this was because any free phosphates are consumed by algae... Part of the reason I have been running GFO is to try to out complete the algae so that it doesn't get worse. How do I increase my phosphates without making my current bryopsis problem much worse?

We've run GFO for quite a long time without any issues nearly this bad (although I admit we have had ups and downs with some pieces, mostly acans, which could have been the same ). Could it be that the increasing bryopsis finally tipped the balance in stripping the water of nutrients?

Edit; I replied to the wrong post It should have been the one about alk


With low phosphate and nitrate you should keep the alk low as well. Well, low is somewhat incorrect, natural sea water has and alk of 6.8-7.3 dKH and has very little soluble nitrate and phosphate. If you want to mirror that, you should also keep alk at NSW levels. Keeping one of the three high while keeping others low (or vice versa) is stressful for corals. You can also keep all three high, but it might get difficult to manage algae unless you have a good herbivore team.

Here is something I wrote on that subject couple of moths ago;

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2672718

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Thanks Tripod1401! I've already killed the reactor, so no more GFO running.

Did you take the carbon offline too?

How powerful is your skimmer? Unless you're really confident that it's plenty powerful and skimming nice and wet, I'd leave the carbon online and just take the GFO out.

As you start to raise nutrients back up, you run the risk of fueling pest algae as much as you're fueling your corals. Keeping organics low will help keep the algae in check. Skimming and carbon are the best ways to do that.

You don't want to go overkill on the carbon, but having SOME running may help.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

We've run GFO for quite a long time without any issues nearly this bad

If you're only slightly "overdosing" with GFO (using enough that it can outpace the rate you're adding phosphate to the tank but not way way too much) then it's common for your phosphate level to go bad slowly like you're seeing. GFO can't literally bring phosphate to zero all at once, it basically absorbs until it reaches a balance with the tank water. If you're using enough that it can actually drop the phosphate level in the tank (as opposed to just keeping up with the rate you're adding phosphate) and then you're pulling it out and replacing it with fresh GFO once it's exhausted, your phosphate value will look like a staircase heading downwards - each time you replace it, you're starting at a lower value, so the equilibrium point shifts downwards a corresponding amount. So, the drop to "zero" can happen with GFO, it just takes a while if the amount of GFO you're using is only slightly oversized (as is usually the case).

If you want to outcompete algae in the display, try growing macro in a 'fuge. Macro can't strip phosphate too low like GFO or LC can - the macro will usually become phosphate (or nitrate or iron) limited before phosphate drops below what corals want.

 

[Tripod1404]

If you're only slightly "overdosing" with GFO (using enough that it can outpace the rate you're adding phosphate to the tank but not way way too much) then it's common for your phosphate level to go bad slowly like you're seeing. GFO can't literally bring phosphate to zero all at once, it basically absorbs until it reaches a balance with the tank water. If you're using enough that it can actually drop the phosphate level in the tank (as opposed to just keeping up with the rate you're adding phosphate) and then you're pulling it out and replacing it with fresh GFO once it's exhausted, your phosphate value will look like a staircase heading downwards - each time you replace it, you're starting at a lower value, so the equilibrium point shifts downwards a corresponding amount. So, the drop to "zero" can happen with GFO, it just takes a while if the amount of GFO you're using is only slightly oversized (as is usually the case).

If you want to outcompete algae in the display, try growing macro in a 'fuge. Macro can't strip phosphate too low like GFO or LC can - the macro will usually become phosphate (or nitrate or iron) limited before phosphate drops below what corals want.

I agree. Another issue with GFO is that it prevents diurnal fluctuations in phosphate, as opposed macro algae whose phosphate uptake rate drops during the night. So if your uptake method is macro, corals can stock up phosphate during the night and macro can stock up during the day. This way two can share the phosphate pool without starving one and other (unless maybe if you have a massive algae population). All in all, I have never seen algae (even nuisance algae) to cause phosphate starvation in corals.

On the other hand, like you explained, GFO can slowly strip water of phosphate in a step by step manner if you refresh the GFO media.

 

[MatAndPatti]

Thanks!

Thanks!

With low phosphate and nitrate you should keep the alk low as well. Well, low is somewhat incorrect, natural sea water has and alk of 6.8-7.3 dKH and has very little soluble nitrate and phosphate. If you want to mirror that, you should also keep alk at NSW levels. Keeping one of the three high while keeping others low (or vice versa) is stressful for corals. You can also keep all three high, but it might get difficult to manage algae unless you have a good herbivore team.

Here is something I wrote on that subject couple of moths ago;

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2672718

Thanks very much for that information and link!! :beer: Excellent writeup and explanation of a relationship that I was completely unaware of! I had mistakenly thought that phosphate == algae fuel and that was the extent of it.. This potentially explains why we have had past problems with acans in particular. They would be doing fine, but then at some point start receding and finally down to nothing. I never really understood the issue there, but always thought it was an issue of low alk.

At this point I've changed the reactor out to just carbon. I'll increase feeding and try to get our phosphate up to a detectable level.

As far as trying to eliminate our bryopsis (with fluconazole), I'm a little concerned about the potential spike in nutrients that will occur when it starts dying off. Do you have any suggestions on how to deal with that, or should I just go with the normal protocol?

Thanks again!

 

[MatAndPatti]

Did you take the carbon offline too?

How powerful is your skimmer? Unless you're really confident that it's plenty powerful and skimming nice and wet, I'd leave the carbon online and just take the GFO out.

As you start to raise nutrients back up, you run the risk of fueling pest algae as much as you're fueling your corals. Keeping organics low will help keep the algae in check. Skimming and carbon are the best ways to do that.

You don't want to go overkill on the carbon, but having SOME running may help.

Nope, I was due to change the reactor media anyhow, so now I've got it running carbon only. We've got a pretty decent skimmer (a ReefOctopus, can't recall the model right now), but it's running kindof in the middle (not real wet, not real dry). What kind of indication might there be that I'm running too much carbon? Would it be a good idea to run the reactor on maybe a 50% duty cycle (on 4 hours/off 4 hours, repeating) so as to not over do it?

If you're only slightly "overdosing" with GFO (using enough that it can outpace the rate you're adding phosphate to the tank but not way way too much) then it's common for your phosphate level to go bad slowly like you're seeing. GFO can't literally bring phosphate to zero all at once, it basically absorbs until it reaches a balance with the tank water. If you're using enough that it can actually drop the phosphate level in the tank (as opposed to just keeping up with the rate you're adding phosphate) and then you're pulling it out and replacing it with fresh GFO once it's exhausted, your phosphate value will look like a staircase heading downwards - each time you replace it, you're starting at a lower value, so the equilibrium point shifts downwards a corresponding amount. So, the drop to "zero" can happen with GFO, it just takes a while if the amount of GFO you're using is only slightly oversized (as is usually the case).

If you want to outcompete algae in the display, try growing macro in a 'fuge. Macro can't strip phosphate too low like GFO or LC can - the macro will usually become phosphate (or nitrate or iron) limited before phosphate drops below what corals want.

Thanks for this explanation! We've tried cheato in the fuge and was never able to keep it going, but that was quite a long time ago. Probably a good idea to bump up our feeding and give it another shot. This really helped me to see that my running of GFO has probably been a contributor to past issues (acans doing great, then receding and finally dying off) as well as our recent losses. Always something new to learn in this hobby, sometimes the hard way!

Thanks again!

 

[vessxpress1]

This is the first post I've read on here in years after a long break and this thread was very informative. Thinking about starting up a new tank and I wouldve been aiming for 0 phosphate before I read this. I have had bryopsis take over a tank before.

But back to the issue at hand. Is there a possibility something changed with the water supply? Say a city started adding chloramines and the RO unit doesn't have a filter to take them out? I don't know if it would play out this gradually over time but I am curious.

 

[MatAndPatti]

But back to the issue at hand. Is there a possibility something changed with the water supply? Say a city started adding chloramines and the RO unit doesn't have a filter to take them out? I don't know if it would play out this gradually over time but I am curious.

That's a good thought too, since we don't have an appropriate carbon block for chloramines in our RO system, and I also have no idea how that would manifest itself in the tank. But, I checked with our water authority and they only use chlorine, so we should be good!

That being said, just yesterday I changed out all the filters (except RO membrane) in our system. We were getting close to being due for it (based on gallons of water processed at least). I hadn't noticed any pressure drops after the carbon blocks, but figured while I was doing the DI and sediment filters, might as well get the others done also.

 

[Willistein]

hey Mat - just checking to see if things ever turned around. How goes it?