Help me defend our hobby

[NaClH2Opgh]

Of course I know this. And it illustrates my point completley. He's a clever business man who wouldnt invest in an indutrsy which as you say isnt efficient. He's a savvy guy. He realises there's a whole lot of wind energy out there and he can make money by harnessing it.

Obvisouly you where saying he's wasting his money on hippy greeny technolgy. :spin3: Maybe you should call him up and tell him it's an unefficient technology. LOL

No it's called the shotgun effect. He invests in all energy thinking one of them will make some money. He is filthy rich so there is no risk. As you can see he is an oilman first and foremost.
still waiting for pics on your green lifestyle mr/mrs greenie or should I say hypocrite....way to do your part...:thumbsup: :crazy1:

 

[Rossini]

No it's called the shotgun effect. He invests in all energy thinking one of them will make some money. He is filthy rich so there is no risk. As you can see he is an oilman first and foremost.
still waiting for pics on your green lifestyle mr/mrs greenie or should I say hypocrite....way to do your part...:thumbsup: :crazy1:

O.k you know best. I still think you should call him up and warn him that he's wasting billions on hippy wind farms. :lmao:

Ah it's that old argument is it. When all else fails, use the hypocrite card.

I cant afford solar panels or a wind turbine. Another thing I live in a basement flat, so I would find it hard finding somewhere to put them:lmao:. When solar and hopefully this will be soon becomes cheaper then I will buy it, if I can find somewhere to install it. At the moment it's still too expensive for me. There is talk of micro renewables becoming cheaper in the near future and a feed in tariff starting where we can sell any excess electrcity back to the national grid. Isnt that great. :thumbsup:

In the UK we have a national grid. What us silly old greenies want is our government and the private sector to build lots of renewables instead of replacing them with age old technolgies like coal burning. so that as a country we lower our emmisions and reliance on foreign imports of fossil fuels. Is that such a bad thing? Am I not allowed to want these changes because I haven't installed a wind turbine myself? Wakey wakey old partner. :wavehand:

 

[NaClH2Opgh]

O.k you know best. I still think you should call him up and warn him that he's wasting billions on hippy wind farms. :lmao:

Ah it's that old argument is it. When all else fails, use the hypocrite card.

I cant afford solar panels or a wind turbine. Another thing I live in a basement flat, so I would find it hard finding somewhere to put them:lmao:. When solar and hopefully this will be soon becomes cheaper then I will buy it, if I can find somewhere to install it. At the moment it's still too expensive for me. There is talk of micro renewables becoming cheaper in the near future and a feed in tariff starting where we can sell any excess electrcity back to the national grid. Isnt that great. :thumbsup:

In the UK we have a national grid. What us silly old greenies want is our government and the private sector to build lots of renewables instead of replacing them with age old technolgies like coal burning. so that as a country we lower our emmisions and reliance on foreign imports of fossil fuels. Is that such a bad thing? Am I not allowed to want these changes because I haven't installed a wind turbine myself? Wakey wakey old partner. :wavehand:

You are allowed to want the changes. My problem is when a minority decides on a course of action and tries to tell the rest what is good for them. The bottom line is you greenies are still in the minority. Although the fact that you listed nuclear shows you are not a true greenie just a wannabe. Solar panels are not that expensive so saying you can't afford them is silly. I have priced them already and chose not to use them on my house. You are missing my point. I am not against alternative energies completely. Wind is not aviable alternative because it is too expensive as you admit. We cannot stop the use of coal and nuclear until it is feasible. Right now they are the most economical and efficient sources out there. I think we should "develop" the others and not restrict what works for us now. I don't need to wake, you just need to quit smoking and come back to reality. :dance:

 

[Rossini]

Solar panels are not that expensive so saying you can't afford them is silly.

That's me finished talking to you. This has really shown me the kind of person im talking to, a very arrogant and also very ignorant one. What makes you so sure I can afford solar? You know absolutley nothing about my financial situation. As far as I'm aware the average cost of setting up a PV solar to run the electric of a house is somewhere between £6K and £10K. That's alot of money to most people and especially me, a soon to be student. [[/I]

:wavehand:

 

[NaClH2Opgh]

Solar panels are not that expensive so saying you can't afford them is silly.

That's me finished talking to you. This has really shown me the kind of person im talking to, a very arrogant and also very ignorant one. What makes you so sure I can afford solar? You know absolutley nothing about my financial situation. As far as I'm aware the average cost of setting up a PV solar to run the electric of a house is somewhere between £6K and £10K. That's alot of money to most people and especially me, a soon to be student. [[/I]

:wavehand:

There ya go, I knew it wouldn't take long to start with the insults. A soon to be student? I'm not responsible for your financial situation and could care less about it. When I said not expensive, I meant for adult homeowners not "soon to be students" living in a basement. When you actually get into the real world let me know cause you sound like someone speaking from theories and online blogs not the real life experiences.

"That's me finished talking to you" :thumbsup:

You could always sell your computer to help offset the solar cost...that would be very nice.

 

[teesquare]

I had hoped this would stay a "civil thread" - because there is much good that can come of open, frank discussion as long as it is not adversarial in nature.

My point in asking if someone could explain what is meant by a "non-carbon economy" was really to get all involved here in this thread to see that the truth - is NOT found at either extreme of the pro - or - con arguments.
It always lies in the middle ground between the two extremes......
Example- when we have elected officials that we tire of, we always go to the other extreme to elect the OPPOSITE type person as for their plans, aspirations and goals. And then what happens? Resistance to that much change is inevitable. And progress is never mush - if at all.
Yet - when we are aware of that fact - and make choices which are compromises - and which combine many strategies that have economic as well as ecological benefit - we move forward in a manner that is well recieved by all, because their benefit for all.
The Green Extreme - wants all of their goals met now. Noble - but un-realistic.
And - the "Same as it has always been" group either does not believe, or see the need for change. (Probably because deep down there is a fear of the change -or the self responsibility in the change that adds stress) and the psychological need to have stability for their expectations for the future. Rational, and important as well.

I am forced to understand both sides very well, because one of my businesses is a sales/consultant firm in energy efficiency.
Our focus is on how to spend the least and gain the most in efficiency.
This is because since the 1960's we have know we needed to conserve, and reduce pollution etc, but no one recognized what motivates most of the consumption in the world. COST......
So - make it economically beneficial - and then you will see the consumer move toward enrgy efficient, smaller carbon foor print choices. But not until then, because - at the end of the day, while we all dream of a better tomorrow - we all still have to make the choice based on what we can afford. Wemay vote for a politician with our heart - but we really vote when it counts with our wallet.

Rossini - solar will never be cheaper. It may be more efficient, but there will remain a cost/benefit ratio that is fairly constant. That is because the manufacturers must make a profit, in order to make all the risks of doing business worthwhile. Can't blame them - just the way it is. I admire your idealism, but I hope you can temper it with a less than "hard line" approach - and I hope others in this thread can as well.
T

 

[swiftwing7]

How is wind power inefficient??? Its the fastest growing form of renewable energy in the world. Maybe you know something they don't?

 

[Dlhirst]

There are many reasons to desire alternate energy sources. I for one (here's the invite to castigate!) do not believe that any measurable climate change can be explained by human activity. BUT, I do not like what coal companies do to trout streams. For that reason, I buy electricity from renewable resources only. Almost every American has the ability to make that choice. Our electric company calls it Green Currents, yours might be similar. Yes, it costs a little more. Perhaps someday, it won't. But, I am willing to pay that extra amount to do my part - voluntarily. I would oppose vigorously any scheme that would impose that "tax" on my neighbors.
Buying "green" energy in no way makes me a saint. It's a personal choice. I mention it only to suggest that you CAN reduce your carbon footprint if you really want. For pennies (OK, maybe dollars) each month.

 

[teesquare]

How is wind power inefficient??? Its the fastest growing form of renewable energy in the world. Maybe you know something they don't?

It is only energy efficient in specific locations. What you need is a sustained wind above the minimum speed required ( the best I have seen is 6 mph - and then it is not too effective) and below the maximum speed per manufacturer.

Great in the plains of the US where the wind is always moving. Doest not pay in the mountains where I live, nor in many other parts of the country. But as a PART of the solution - absolutely!

Dlhirst - i understand completely, and like you I trout fish ( I live in Transylvania Co. NC - more waterfalls here than any other area of the U.S., thus - lots of trout warer too)

Look - the BEST thing we can all do is QUIT BASHING people that disagree with you. Talk, ask questions, encourage public discourse.

The planet is changing. I do not know for sure IF anything can be done about it. I do not know conclusively that it is because I drive a big diesel powered truck, or if - as the ice record indicates - this is a natural cycle.

But - I must do 2 things:
1. aswage my personal conscience - (without brow-beating anyone else about their choices)

2. put action behind what my conscience tells me - so, buying green power is good, and to be commended.

But realistically, if you combine that with changing out all of the incandescent bulbs in your home with Compact Flourescent ones - it will reduce your cost of lighting the home by 77%. And - less carbon use. As well - in So.. Cal, the power companies are buying down the cost of the CF 's to a mere $ 1.00 each!!! And - thry last an average of 5 or more years. Many are warrantied to do so as well.
THAT is a can't lose proposition gentlemen!!
YOU save money WHILE contributing to a greener cleaner planet.

T

 

[wdt2000]

Great in the plains of the US where the wind is always moving. Doest not pay in the mountains where I live, nor in many other parts of the country. But as a PART of the solution - absolutely!

T

Plenty of areas in WNC and Transylvania Co. NC with a wind power class rating of 5,6, and 7.

http://wind.appstate.edu/

-Will

 

[teesquare]

Actually Will - there are too few opportunities/sites to make it viable for commercial use. For reasons not taken into acct. in that report. The problem with an academic report is that it may not take into account a number of factors which stand in the way of site development costs and the locals opinions as well.

I am on a panel that consults with ( read: spanks:hmm5 the TVA on a regular basis. last year I sat between the president of the largest manufacturer of solar PV panels in N America, and the CEO of a leading wind turbine company. We spent hours with the board of the TVA going over all of the alternative power generation methods which have been shown to be profitable for them, by extensive studies and modeling.
When we meet with them to discuss the use of all available technologies to expand their capabilites without the use of oil, or coal, it is an absolute that we have the best and most realistic date available.

That is why I can speak to this issue. I also own a company involved in some green technologies and research

There is one small wind site near Boone that is "sort of" working. None in Trans. Co. The winds are not consistent enough. We get a lot of wind - or no wind, but not the gentle to brisk, consistent wind needed to make it pay back what investors want to see.

The TVA has had a site on Buffalo Ridge in East TN for a number of years, but has not been expanding it - again, due to in-consistancy of wind at the site.

So - for me - the bottom line if you want to install a wind turbine, can afford to do so without relying on a pay-back and you live where you live in Mills River NC -Do it. I admire people who put there money where their mouth is in any losing adventure:lmao:

T

 

[wdt2000]

The problem with an academic report.

No idea what "report" your talking about

That is why I can speak to this issue. I also own a company involved in some green technologies and research

What company and what technologies and research?

The TVA has had a site on Buffalo Ridge in East TN for a number of years, but has not been expanding it - again, due to in-consistancy of wind at the site.

From the TVA site..

"TVA's wind power site is on Buffalo Mountain near Oak Ridge, Tennessee. In 2004, TVA greatly expanded its wind generating capacity when it added 15 very large turbines to the three original, smaller turbines at the site. Wind energy is now a major contributor to Green Power Switch."

So - for me - the bottom line if you want to install a wind turbine, can afford to do so without relying on a pay-back and you live where you live in Mills River NC -Do it. I admire people who put there money where their mouth is in any losing adventure:lmao:

The ridge above me is national forest so I will not be putting anything on it

I was simply stating that there are plenty of ridges in WNC that have sustained winds of greater than 7 mph. I am sure most people don't want to see these on their mountain tops...

Also were are you getting the data on TVA wind power. As far as I know its not public or even shared. Also the TVA has been riddled with corruption.

 

[teesquare]

Will your tactics in "egging on people" are well documented on the local forum.... ( and that happens to be why so few people are still active on it:spin3 I don't see a continuation of this discourse with you developing into anything other than satisfying your love of contraversy.

If you want me to tell you all about my life - both private and public, and to have access to my sources- I suggest you contact my ofc, speak to my asst. and schedule an appt. The fee for my time is $600 per hr.

Anyone of the folks on Area 191 knows how to reach me - in the event you feel compelled to.

Otherwise - have a great day!

T

 

[rihanssu]

I have been enjoying the salty scene now for about 2 years. What started off as a father and son project has evolved into a true obsession. We just love it! We started with a 75 gallon and are now cycling our 175 bow front. I see no end in sight (unless we run out of money).

Here the thing. With the holidays approaching I know I will have family over to the house and my brother and sister in law are those tree hugger types. Environmental extremist's if you will. They also lead a life they refer to as a "œminimalist". Don't get me wrong. I am environmentally aware myself and commend them for their passion. But, I mean, they don't even own a car. They want their "œcarbon footprint" to be as small as possible. They ride bikes everywhere they can"¦ and rent a car when they need one. Their newborn baby wears only cloth diapers. They have no furniture to speak of in their apartment (save trees). Just pillows and mattresses on the floor. Just the bare essentials. Oh"¦and they named this precious newborn little boy"¦Crow. Yes"¦the childs name"¦is Crow. Good luck with that one kid.

Anyway"¦Are you kind of getting the picture now? To each his own I suppose.

I know they are going to come into my house this Christmas and "œfreak" when they see my reef set up. I have lots of nice rock from the Fiji Islands and lots of nice fishys caught in the wild. Oh"¦and did I mention this guy also is an expert on every subject? (He's one of those too).

I honestly don't know how to defend this hobby to a guy like this.
Mainly because"¦ I am afraid he may be right.

Any advice???

i did not read all 128 posts but i woud simply point out that by keeping these animals you help to ensure they dont go exticnt?

 

[maynardjames]

i would show them wood door on way out. they should have enough respect for you not to say a word about it. i love all my family very much, but don`t take any crap from them & don`t expect them to put up with any from me
didn`t read all the way thru thread before posting, seems a few people love to argue. didn`t want to get into debate on green or no green.

 

[wdt2000]

Will your tactics in "egging on people" are well documented on the local forum.... ( and that happens to be why so few people are still active on it:spin3 I don't see a continuation of this discourse with you developing into anything other than satisfying your love of contraversy.

The admin called you out and you got mad and left, I was not even active on the last two pages on that thread. The board is plenty active btw.

If you want me to tell you all about my life - both private and public, and to have access to my sources- I suggest you contact my ofc, speak to my asst. and schedule an appt. The fee for my time is $600 per hr.

I could care less about our personal life or your company. But if your going to offer it up as proof of your expertise in an area you should at least be more specific. In past discussion you claimed you were an expert in the medical field which you may be, you also may have expertise in wind power.

I own a company that is a registered Medicare provider

again in my business providing goods and svcs. as a participating Medicare provider

But - why punish the companies like mine that employ 2 nurses, and 14 medical techs.?

That is why I can speak to this issue. I also own a company involved in some green technologies and research

If your going to use your company to leverage yourself in a debate you should be able to back it up imo. Why not say what technologies and researched your involved?

-Will

PS I was simply pointing out that the App State wind site has wind maps which will show you the area in WNC that have wind to keep a wind mill profitable. They also provide site assessment...

 

[teesquare]

(YAWN).................
The admin that I have a beer with on a regular basis? THAT is funny!:spin1: Will I left because of your attitude. I deal with a lot of people every day. And - this hobby is supposed to be for FUN. It is NOT supposed to be adversarial. Yet that is where you get your kicks.

Will - again - I just have no interest in bantering with you. I do own a medical equipment company. I am also an engineer by training. And I consult not just with the TVA, bt a few senators and U.S. Representatives. On several issues. Some of them are not for public discussion.

When someone chooses to share information with you - it is your obvious "will" - (apt name I suppose) to dis-credit, argue, conflagrate, and de-mean.
I am sorry that whatever your situation is that you feel anyone n the medical equipment field, or apparently power generation is corrupt, or charging too much. You know so very little about any other costs of doing business in those markets is like - other than what affects you - but are quick to denigrate and label.

Let me just be plain. The BEST thing you and I can do for the good of this forum - is to NOT respond to one another. So - I am asking you to not antagonize me.

My apologies to all readers for the embarrassment of even having to deal with this.
T

 

[Rossini]

I had hoped this would stay a "civil thread" - because there is much good that can come of open, frank discussion as long as it is not adversarial in nature.

My point in asking if someone could explain what is meant by a "non-carbon economy" was really to get all involved here in this thread to see that the truth - is NOT found at either extreme of the pro - or - con arguments.
It always lies in the middle ground between the two extremes......
Example- when we have elected officials that we tire of, we always go to the other extreme to elect the OPPOSITE type person as for their plans, aspirations and goals. And then what happens? Resistance to that much change is inevitable. And progress is never mush - if at all.
Yet - when we are aware of that fact - and make choices which are compromises - and which combine many strategies that have economic as well as ecological benefit - we move forward in a manner that is well recieved by all, because their benefit for all.
The Green Extreme - wants all of their goals met now. Noble - but un-realistic.
And - the "Same as it has always been" group either does not believe, or see the need for change. (Probably because deep down there is a fear of the change -or the self responsibility in the change that adds stress) and the psychological need to have stability for their expectations for the future. Rational, and important as well.

I am forced to understand both sides very well, because one of my businesses is a sales/consultant firm in energy efficiency.
Our focus is on how to spend the least and gain the most in efficiency.
This is because since the 1960's we have know we needed to conserve, and reduce pollution etc, but no one recognized what motivates most of the consumption in the world. COST......
So - make it economically beneficial - and then you will see the consumer move toward enrgy efficient, smaller carbon foor print choices. But not until then, because - at the end of the day, while we all dream of a better tomorrow - we all still have to make the choice based on what we can afford. Wemay vote for a politician with our heart - but we really vote when it counts with our wallet.

Rossini - solar will never be cheaper. It may be more efficient, but there will remain a cost/benefit ratio that is fairly constant. That is because the manufacturers must make a profit, in order to make all the risks of doing business worthwhile. Can't blame them - just the way it is. I admire your idealism, but I hope you can temper it with a less than "hard line" approach - and I hope others in this thread can as well.
T

Some people will never let these discussions stay civil or intellectual. They rant and spout misinformation and when they have exhausted all that they get personal. saying things like "do you have a wind turbine on your roof?" "you cant comment on environmental issues you are typing on a computer which uses electrcity" etc. It's all very childish.

Regarding solar. I think "never" is a rather strong and maybe misleading word. I met someone last week who is just starting her phd on plastic solar cells. They are cheaper, can be moulded into many different shapes, and you dont need lots of silicone.

 

[Rossini]

(YAWN).................
The admin that I have a beer with on a regular basis? THAT is funny!:spin1: Will I left because of your attitude. I deal with a lot of people every day. And - this hobby is supposed to be for FUN. It is NOT supposed to be adversarial. Yet that is where you get your kicks.

Will - again - I just have no interest in bantering with you. I do own a medical equipment company. I am also an engineer by training. And I consult not just with the TVA, bt a few senators and U.S. Representatives. On several issues. Some of them are not for public discussion.

When someone chooses to share information with you - it is your obvious "will" - (apt name I suppose) to dis-credit, argue, conflagrate, and de-mean.
I am sorry that whatever your situation is that you feel anyone n the medical equipment field, or apparently power generation is corrupt, or charging too much. You know so very little about any other costs of doing business in those markets is like - other than what affects you - but are quick to denigrate and label.

Let me just be plain. The BEST thing you and I can do for the good of this forum - is to NOT respond to one another. So - I am asking you to not antagonize me.

My apologies to all readers for the embarrassment of even having to deal with this.
T

.

 

[Rossini]

The admin called you out and you got mad and left, I was not even active on the last two pages on that thread. The board is plenty active btw.



I could care less about our personal life or your company. But if your going to offer it up as proof of your expertise in an area you should at least be more specific. In past discussion you claimed you were an expert in the medical field which you may be, you also may have expertise in wind power.









If your going to use your company to leverage yourself in a debate you should be able to back it up imo. Why not say what technologies and researched your involved?

-Will

PS I was simply pointing out that the App State wind site has wind maps which will show you the area in WNC that have wind to keep a wind mill profitable. They also provide site assessment...

Totally agree Will. You have to be able to back 'claims' up.