help needed with zoa losses

[pascal32]

I'm loosing zoas to what appears to be a greenish or brownish film. My lack of being home to tend to the tank is costing me dearly Some zoas are completely unaffected (yet) - though i suspect that the problem is making rounds. most recently I have lost some candy canes and multi-colored frogspawn in my display.


details in the zoa forum post: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19243775#post19243775

Any help is appreciated - post here or in the zoa forum.

thanks!

 

[chuckawd]

I have tried the dip many times too man to no avail. So far I have lost about 30 polyps of some whammin watermelons and 5 PPE's. They literally just melted over about a 3-4 week period. I tried dipping the PPE's and that didn't do anything. I think the melting zoas is part of this hobby.

Thankfully I haven't lost any of my super nice zoas. I would probably cry if I did. They all seem to not be affected at all by what ever killed my other colonies. My PPE's were pretty much touching my Candy Apple Reds and my AOG and neither of them were affected.

 

[toddmh]

It may be the gfo and carbon dosing that is changing the water to quick and the zoos are being shocked,the sudden water changes may be playing a role in that also

But with me zoas are a pain,they grow healthy for months and then bang melt over night,some do great in my system and some will not do good at all..I've pretty much stopped buying zoos/palys for this reason..Good luck..

 

[pascal32]

It may be the gfo and carbon dosing that is changing the water to quick and the zoos are being shocked,the sudden water changes may be playing a role in that also

But with me zoas are a pain,they grow healthy for months and then bang melt over night,some do great in my system and some will not do good at all..I've pretty much stopped buying zoos/palys for this reason..Good luck..

I hear you on temperament of zoas!

I've tried to be gradual bringing the carbon and GFO back. I can deal with losses, not so much when there is something happen I might be able to stop like this film. I'm wondering bacterial or fungal - not sure how to tell.

Ihave tried the dip many times too man to no avail. So far I have lost about 30 polyps of some whammin watermelons and 5 PPE's. They literally just melted over about a 3-4 week period. I tried dipping the PPE's and that didn't do anything. I think the melting zoas is part of this hobby.

Thankfully I haven't lost any of my super nice zoas. I would probably cry if I did. They all seem to not be affected at all by what ever killed my other colonies. My PPE's were pretty much touching my Candy Apple Reds and my AOG and neither of them were affected.

I've thought about crying, holding off for now!

 

[reefboarder]

I too have lost plenty of zoas over the years to melting, including whammin watermelons, and RPE's,. magicians,some unnamed ones as well. Although I suspect a eucinid worm, I have been trying to capture a photograph for some time now but hes a fast bugger! I also read a lot of threads on the zoa forum here and have come to terms with the melting and figure I will just do my best to keep whatever alive. I cant stop buying them so this is the next best solution.

 

[wvreef]

can u post a picture please.....sounds like some sort of sponge to me but need to see a picture.....if it is a sponge pull it out and take a toothbrush and scrub it off the air will kill the sponge, then rinse it in ro water and put back into tank....may need to do this several times to get rid of it all

 

[pascal32]

I'll post a picture tonight when I get home. this is a very thin film, I don't believe it's a sponge.

 

[GMaquarium]

I would look for few things. First examine for pests and parasites of any kind (nudibranches, stars,snails, worms...) second figure out of the coating of algae is the action or reaction in terms of zoas dying.

 

[Dave VG]

Mine did this. The only thing new at the time was starting a gfo reactor. My Nitrates and phosphates were a little high as well at the time. I did do several furan 2 dips which seemed to help allot.

 

[tmz]

I haven't had this problem in several years. For a while I was dipping in Revive and freshwater every few days for several weeks, which helped. Single dips may help but probably don't get the eggs. Predators like certain fish shrimp , snails,etc may also be a problem. Brisk flow also helped.

A few thoughts:

Zoanthidae encompass zoanthus, palythoa, protopalythoa and a few others that we don't see often in reef tanks. They come from different places and have different feeding habits.
Zoanthus are high reef animals often found overtaking montipora skeleton. They are used to low nutrients high light and good flow. They exhibit no feeding response and may be more autotrophic than the others. Even so some organic carbon may be absorbed to make up any shortfalls from photosynthesis.So they may suffer when organics are rapidly depleted in similar fashion to xenia but less extreme,particularly so when light and flow are lower. Perhaps some even rely to some extent on the organics produced by a neighboring sponge. I suspect reported successes with vitamin C relate to the addition organic carbon source rather than any other effect such as proported collagen production. Mine thrive in low PO4 ,< .05ppm and nitrate around 0.2ppm. I do dose vodka and vinegar primarily for nitrate and phospahte control but it does add extra organics and zoanthus have done very well with it for 2 yrs and 8 mos. My tanks are also very well fed with lot's of fish.

Palys and protopays do well in this water too but enjoy being fed some brine mysis and cyclopeeze. They seem to like calmer flow. They do exhibit a feeding response and come from a variety of locations including more turbid water.I am still stugling with only one previously melted ppe colony which seems to be coming back very slowly in lower flow and with occasional direct feeding.

24/7 skimming , gac and gfo have also been in use for years.

 

[tmz]

What type of carbon dosing are you doing? Glucose and other monomers may be part of the issue. As for the film , I've seen something similar ;could be an algae or a cyano strain and sometimes they put of toxins to gain ground. I'd clean it off if possible.

 

[Jacwil]

Good stuff Tom!

One question re: zoanthus and feeding. You say they don't exhibit feeding behaviors but it sure seems that when I delicately broadcast feed cyclopeeze, often several polyps appear to capture and close up. Thoughts? I know if I were to blast a burst from a baster directly on the polyps they'd close for sure as a defense mechanism, but that's not what I'm doing.

I apologize to the OP for straying off a bit here :beer:

 

[pascal32]

took some pictures. the LPS are starting to take a beating. a gorgeous multicolor in the display is hurting and another LPS in the display is receding.

sorry for the lack of color balance, I need to buy capture NX2

The ugly:

this says it all. H202 no effect:

galaxy paly - been through 2 10% H202 dips, still will not open

LPS starting to get affected -



frogspawn:

Favia:

on the other hand some stuff is doing great:

 

[tmz]

Good stuff Tom!

One question re: zoanthus and feeding. You say they don't exhibit feeding behaviors but it sure seems that when I delicately broadcast feed cyclopeeze, often several polyps appear to capture and close up. Thoughts? I know if I were to blast a burst from a baster directly on the polyps they'd close for sure as a defense mechanism, but that's not what I'm doing.

I apologize to the OP for straying off a bit here :beer:[/QUOTE

Maybe they are palys impersonating zonathus or just irritated by the spray. Mine don't feed even on cyclopeeze although some might. I should have stated don't usually display a feeding response.
On pg 187 of "Aquarium Corals" Eric Borneman notes: "...Zoanthus colonies are highly dependent on their zooxanthelae-rather than active feeding on zooplankton -for energy...." and "...The zooxanthelae sutdied in Zoanthus are known to be a different species that is adapted to strong light ..." and " Many reports both in scientific and hobby litterature claim that Zoanthus species do not exhibit feeding responses to any prey. This is mostly true..." He also notes that some species will consume sea urchin eggs in his experience.

and from pg 178, " ...heterotrophy and direct absorbtion of nutrients from the water can play an important role in their nutrient acquisition..... ...Studies have shown that even under very bright illumination ,species that do not actively capture prey still must supplement their energy needs: light alone is not enough to sustain their metabolism . Starvation results in rapid reduction in polyp size and filamentous algae overgrowth..." Sounds like melting to me. I think the organics( ie organic carbon) from vodka and vinegar help here.

Regarding sponges ,maybe removing them unless they are dying is not such a good idea. from page 178,"...Many... live in association with sponges ....zoanthids do gain nutrition when they grow on the surface of living orgaisms( usually sponges) ... the relationship is more commensal than previously thought..." Sponges do have toxins but they don't seem to bother the zoanthus that grow on them and may offer protection to some. The bright coloration of the zoanthus may keep predators off the sponges.Sponges consume large amounts of dissolved organic carbon and spew out bioavaliable cells of their own which could feed the zoanthus via absorbtion or some form of direct feeding .

 

[tmz]

Pascal, sorry for the trouble you are having. Looks like a water issue of some sort. I'll read your post with the details tommorow and see if I can offer any specific notions.

 

[tmz]

Well, I couldn't wait . After reading it I'd vote for more light and flow and a series of small water changes. Any fish in there for waste products. Non useful organics may be building up too so getting back on the gac could help and feeding a bit might help. Is the yellowish NO3 reading lower than the usual pink. A sudden nitrogen drop could also cause trouble. Are you dosing organic carbon;pellets, vodka, vinegar,vitamin C etc?

 

[GMaquarium]

I noticed similar problems in a carbon dosed tank. If I don't continue to add amino acid and bacteriaplankton some zoas would shrink up and melt away. The algae coating was always a response to dying polyps with raises local organics. This sometimes happens when I move small frags from tank to tank. In a regular reef environment that has good water and is not super low nutrient this doesn't happen for me. Lighting could be key as well. I found most zoanthids can tolerate just about any range but almost all do better with higher light.

 

[pascal32]

I don't have time to read the responses right now - one thing is that I don't carbon dose. Run GFO, Carbon, skim, filter socks, and go through a lot of 2 part Rec 1 (down from about 280ml/day to 200/day - still adjusting after alk went to 11.5)

 

[tmz]

GM, I like to keep my nutrients low but not 0. PO4 .03 to .05ppm, NO3 around 0.2ppm. It could be a lack of nitrogen which amminos and/or food would help . It could be a lack of bacteria plankton or other organics which organic carbon dosing would increase. It could be organics buildup of the wrong flavor. Wish we could measure organic carbon in reef tanks without a 50,000 dollar analyzer.

I agree, the film is probably algae or a cyano strain due to localized high nutrients from starving or ailing polyps. While it sounds contradictory to have excess nutrients spurring algae/cyano in a tank that doesn't have enough nutrients to support corals,it's very likely that high nutrient levels will occur in a localized area like a dying polyp.

 

[pascal32]

great stuff here. I dipped another 8 frags or so, this time 25% H2O2 followed with revive. the limp fellow from above is clean now, but still limp.

I'm very intrigued by your mention of carbon dosing. In my naive mind I have associated carbon dosing to nitrate reduction which is not something I have needed (probably due to the automatic water changer running). The interest is sparked by the reality that I do not feed the tank a lot, and try to make sure the food is consumed by the fish on the way down.

so after much googling and reading you have helped me find a lot of folks in the same situation as myself (which doesn't add any comfort). the good thing is that there is a lot of references to vitamin C dosing helping this issue and helping tanks as a whole.

as to the benefits of vitamin C versus vodka I'm eager to learn

the decision -
(1) should I do a red slime remover treatment as an anti-bacterial. I'm not convinced this is bacterial
(2) start carbon dosing - probably vitamin C as that seems to be successful.