Help! Purchased Flame Angel and I'm pretty sure it has ICH!
- Thread starter gjustinj
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gjustinj
In Memoriam
How many tanks do I need to do a TTM on all those fish? I could prob get 2 10 gallon starter kits from Walmart - then what? I move all the fish to 1 tank for severla days? then move them all to another? Do I use new water, or the water that's in the tank already? Shouldn't I be concerned putting all those fish in one 10 gallon together? Wouldn't it be dangerous? Also, there would be no cycle in the tank, just mixed salt in a 76 degree 10 gallon tank? What about air? Buy a cheap power head to put in there?
I am so mad/sad right now. I put in over 3K of money into this already and now this! Elmers aquarium in Monroeville just lost my business for life!
MondoBongo
Obligate Feeder Obsessed
inverts can, and should, be left where they're at. they can't be infected by ich, although there is an outside chance that they could be carriers.
you're in a difficult position now. obviously the complexity of the QT procedure increases with each fish. even getting all of them out of the tank is going to be a huge lift.
i usually don't advocate copper for a variety of reasons, but it might make more sense logistically to get yourself as large a tank as possible to use as a hospital tank, fill it with pvc elbows and such for hiding spots and do a copper treatment on everyone at once.
now again, i hesitate to advocate this method because it comes with its own challenges.
1. some fish do not tolerate copper medications well
2. it can be tricky to keep copper at a therapeutic level for the duration of the treatment
3. overdosing copper can be fatal
etc...
but attempting to coordinate the TTM regimen for that many fish would be very, very difficult and also require a considerable amount of extra equipment in the form of heaters, pumps, etc, and eat up a HUGE amount of saltwater.
it might also be worth investigating chloroquine phosphate:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/2/fish
you're in pittsburgh. if you need to borrow stuff, i have a few extra tanks and loads of 5 gallon buckets.
you're in a difficult position now. obviously the complexity of the QT procedure increases with each fish. even getting all of them out of the tank is going to be a huge lift.
i usually don't advocate copper for a variety of reasons, but it might make more sense logistically to get yourself as large a tank as possible to use as a hospital tank, fill it with pvc elbows and such for hiding spots and do a copper treatment on everyone at once.
now again, i hesitate to advocate this method because it comes with its own challenges.
1. some fish do not tolerate copper medications well
2. it can be tricky to keep copper at a therapeutic level for the duration of the treatment
3. overdosing copper can be fatal
etc...
but attempting to coordinate the TTM regimen for that many fish would be very, very difficult and also require a considerable amount of extra equipment in the form of heaters, pumps, etc, and eat up a HUGE amount of saltwater.
it might also be worth investigating chloroquine phosphate:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/2/fish
you're in pittsburgh. if you need to borrow stuff, i have a few extra tanks and loads of 5 gallon buckets.
gjustinj
In Memoriam
Mondo, can we exchange phone numbers and talk - maybe you can stop over and take a look and see if you think it's ick - maybe we can work something out?
Dale_M
Official Noob
Here is the article on tank transfer method...
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2507836
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2507836
MondoBongo
Obligate Feeder Obsessed
you can get disease from any fish store. this isn't really the fish store's fault. every hobbyists is responsible for their QT strategy and subsequent level of risk they're willing to incur.
this is why nothing wet goes in to my tanks without a complete QT regimen. but i'm saving that lecture for another time, you're in the middle of a crisis right now and it's not the time.
the logistics of tank transfer here are going to be very difficult due to the scale you're trying to operate at.
gjustinj
In Memoriam
Tripod1404
Active member
As a part of its life cycle, ich drops from the fish and lives on the substrate for several days. During that time it divides is to thousands of free swimming parasites. At the end, those parasites are released and they look for new fish host. Most fish can live through several cycles but in the end parasite numbers reach to such a high level that it kills most of the fish. Remember one cyst release thousands of new parasites and after several such cycles there can be millions of parasites in water column that attack to skin and gills of every fish. Only small number of fish that are naturally resistant to parasites and have strong immune systems can develop immunity and live through it. Those fish are not ich free, they will be carriers for life (unless treated), but they wont show severe symptoms unless their immune systems are somehow compromised.
I have never met a LFS that has disease free fish, during capture and transport most fish are hold in crowded tanks under bad conditions, that is how diseases spread in aquarium fish. Some LFS do quarantines or treatment tanks for their fish if you ask them (for a set daily price). But it is not economical feasible for them to treat each and every fish. No lfs owner would like to keep and feed a fish for 72 days while investing in tons of medication. Price of that fish would double because of that added cost but some other lfs can sell fish without treatment the day after it arrived for 1/3 of the price.
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gjustinj
In Memoriam
I really do not know what to do.. i spent so much freaking money on this entire setup.. why the hell did this happen to me.. I'm about to quit - I can't afford several more tanks for this stuff - nobody told me buying a 125 gallon tank was not enough! I am just FED UP!
Tripod1404
Active member
I really do not know what to do.. i spent so much freaking money on this entire setup.. why the hell did this happen to me.. I'm about to quit - I can't afford several more tanks for this stuff - nobody told me buying a 125 gallon tank was not enough! I am just FED UP!
Worst case , return all your fish to the lfs owner for future store credit and wait for 72 hours. Or ask if LFS can do a quarantine for you (although I am pretty sure it would be cheaper for you to do it).
edit; days not hours
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AnnaCassandra
New member
I really do not know what to do.. i spent so much freaking money on this entire setup.. why the hell did this happen to me.. I'm about to quit - I can't afford several more tanks for this stuff - nobody told me buying a 125 gallon tank was not enough! I am just FED UP!
I can see how this can be seriously stressful and overwhelming for you, but think of it as a lesson learned..the expensive way... and a sign that you need to have more patience and ask questions first to do things the right way instead of asking after things went completely sideways on you. Judging by the amount of time you've been on the forums and the # of posts it seems like you just dove in head first and started buying everything the LFS told you was good and filling your tank with livestock before taking time to research what you were doing. Take a breath, take a step back and slow down.
gjustinj
In Memoriam
Worst case , return all your fish to the lfs owner for future store credit and wait for 72 hours. Or ask if LFS can do a quarantine for you (although I am pretty sure it would be cheaper for you to do it).
edit; days not hours
called the LFS and they didn't seem to offer anything but more oil (non copper based) products and another fish that pecks eggs off the fish? Oh and now they tell me i should have quarantined it.. man im learning a hard lesson right now
gjustinj
In Memoriam
The LFS told me that as long as the fish wasn't going to grow large or be overly hard to keep, that beginner fish was not a problem after having me do a big ammonia test and turning it over to nitrates in less than a day.
I thought I was moving at a good pace?
What you can do for your main tank, now that ich may have gotten into the sandbed is leave it fishless (inverts are ok) for 72 days.
To add protection, when you return your fish to the tank, be sure that that tank's water parameters are pretty well in agreement with mine in my sig line. THis will help them keep up their slime coat, which is their natural protection against this pest. In your treatment, maintaining about 8.3 alkalinity and steady salinity at all times will also help them. On their return from quarantine and treatment, dosing something like Stress Coat may give them added help, just in case there was an exceptionally hardy pest lurking. Continue that for a month or so and don't add any unquarantined fish. If you're careful about your fishes' slime coats, you'll have far less trouble.
To add protection, when you return your fish to the tank, be sure that that tank's water parameters are pretty well in agreement with mine in my sig line. THis will help them keep up their slime coat, which is their natural protection against this pest. In your treatment, maintaining about 8.3 alkalinity and steady salinity at all times will also help them. On their return from quarantine and treatment, dosing something like Stress Coat may give them added help, just in case there was an exceptionally hardy pest lurking. Continue that for a month or so and don't add any unquarantined fish. If you're careful about your fishes' slime coats, you'll have far less trouble.
gjustinj
In Memoriam
Hi Sk8r, I don't know how to keep my fish alive for 72 days. I don't have a ton of money to invest in a bunch of tanks - what can I really do?
MondoBongo
Obligate Feeder Obsessed
the best advice i can give you is to hit the brakes.
i'm looking back at your old threads here, you started your tank about 4 weeks ago, with a canister filter, and it's already crammed full of fish. as soon as april 9th you were still seeing ammonia, and nitrites were still elevated last week?
my best advice is to take all your animals back, and start over. make sure your tank is completely cycled and that you're running the right equipment. make sure you're properly quarantining new arrivals, and above all else, slow down.
either that, or pull them all out of that tank and run them all through a strict QT protocol, although i have to stress that for the amount of fish you have this would be a high level of effort even for a seasoned aquarist with the right setup.
you can trying calling Oddball to see if they can offer assistance. they might be able to take your fish if you choose not to keep them. in the future i would be very, very wary of taking advice LFS if you're hearing something different on the boards. go back through some of your old threads, other members here have given you some really good tips, i would suggest that you take them.
ideally you want to fully cycle your tank first (this can take 3 - 6 weeks and the only way you will know is testing accordingly and making sure you're processing ammonia fully), then start off with a clean up crew for a week or two, monitoring water quality and continuing to ghost feed. then you can get a very small bioload, think two small clownfish, and keep them for a few weeks before evening thinking about adding anything else.
gjustinj, there's a way out, but you need to go to Petsmart or some place that sells inexpensive tanks: get two. Put fish in one, with filter, plenty of aeration, 79 degree warmth; you don't need a light. You follow the instructions for TTM given above. Get a bottle of Prime. This will let you use bleach to sanitize your equipment between changes: Prime kills chlorine.
TTM is relatively short duration. But you need to hold all fish in the plain glass (no sand, no rock) tank(s) for 72 days, and draw a line on the tank, so that you know where the water level should be kept (evaporation is constant and rapid). Always top off with freshwater (the salt part doesn't evaporate). Test your water for nitrate every day, and do a dip strip test (ask your local pond store) for ammonia twice a day. A pond dip strip is not a bad test---it's relatively cheap==and in your situation, you're going to need to watch those tanks closely. This exercise is either going to make you a proper reefer or drive you out of the hobby, and we all hope it's the former, and that you'll figure it out. WE're here to help: be honest about your readings and help us give you good advice. But they're all exposed now, and TTM is the best way to save this fish and protect the others.
Unfortunately the first thing the pest does is dive for your sandbed and reproduce, to infest more fish, so that's why the 72 day wait.
In the meanwhile, the section of stickies atop this forum is a must-read. You'll know a lot more when you get through it.
TTM is relatively short duration. But you need to hold all fish in the plain glass (no sand, no rock) tank(s) for 72 days, and draw a line on the tank, so that you know where the water level should be kept (evaporation is constant and rapid). Always top off with freshwater (the salt part doesn't evaporate). Test your water for nitrate every day, and do a dip strip test (ask your local pond store) for ammonia twice a day. A pond dip strip is not a bad test---it's relatively cheap==and in your situation, you're going to need to watch those tanks closely. This exercise is either going to make you a proper reefer or drive you out of the hobby, and we all hope it's the former, and that you'll figure it out. WE're here to help: be honest about your readings and help us give you good advice. But they're all exposed now, and TTM is the best way to save this fish and protect the others.
Unfortunately the first thing the pest does is dive for your sandbed and reproduce, to infest more fish, so that's why the 72 day wait.
In the meanwhile, the section of stickies atop this forum is a must-read. You'll know a lot more when you get through it.
Tripod1404
Active member
I think with the amount of fish OP have that would be very problematic. Hypo would cause a large scale die-off including much of the bacteria. There will be a huge ammonia issue from the combined effect of the die-off, reduction of bacteria population and waste of all those fish produce.
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