Help! Purchased Flame Angel and I'm pretty sure it has ICH!

[AnnaCassandra]

I have a few (occeleris/mocha) clowns, a bengaii cardinal, a few green/blue chromis, a azure damsel, flame angel, coral beauty, 1 cleaner shrimp, 20 hermit crabs and one beginner coral.

How many tanks do I need, how big do they have to be? I might be screwed I don't have the room or what's needed for all of this I could probably pick up two 10 gallon tanks from walmart?

The LFS told me that as long as the fish wasn't going to grow large or be overly hard to keep, that beginner fish was not a problem after having me do a big ammonia test and turning it over to nitrates in less than a day.

I thought I was moving at a good pace?

You have A LOT of fish in there, you really should have only been adding 1-2 fish per month not 3-4 fish per week. You've been given a lot of good advice for what to do now, hindsight is always 20/20 and it's easy to get excited and get carried away (I'm even guilty of a few overzealous additions- but I lucked out)

 

[gjustinj]

the best advice i can give you is to hit the brakes.

i'm looking back at your old threads here, you started your tank about 4 weeks ago, with a canister filter, and it's already crammed full of fish. as soon as april 9th you were still seeing ammonia, and nitrites were still elevated last week?

my best advice is to take all your animals back, and start over. make sure your tank is completely cycled and that you're running the right equipment. make sure you're properly quarantining new arrivals, and above all else, slow down.

either that, or pull them all out of that tank and run them all through a strict QT protocol, although i have to stress that for the amount of fish you have this would be a high level of effort even for a seasoned aquarist with the right setup.

you can trying calling Oddball to see if they can offer assistance. they might be able to take your fish if you choose not to keep them. in the future i would be very, very wary of taking advice LFS if you're hearing something different on the boards. go back through some of your old threads, other members here have given you some really good tips, i would suggest that you take them.

ideally you want to fully cycle your tank first (this can take 3 - 6 weeks and the only way you will know is testing accordingly and making sure you're processing ammonia fully), then start off with a clean up crew for a week or two, monitoring water quality and continuing to ghost feed. then you can get a very small bioload, think two small clownfish, and keep them for a few weeks before evening thinking about adding anything else.

Hey there, its been about a month in a half (over a month cycled without fish), and no my nitrates levels have been great, have not gone over 10, and I've done a few 10-15% water changes too. I added very small fish, nothing big - the LFS told me because of the amount of water and my ammonia to 5 nitrites test in less than 24 hours that my tank was cycling very fast and I would be okay to add fish to it, they also told me every 1/2 inch to a gallon for salt water fish so I was doing really good. That's what I was told.

I am not sure why my posts are reading that way to you as everything has been really good so far except for one thing.. ICH.

 

[gjustinj]

How much money do you have in invertebrates? I would just write off the inverts and hypo the display tank.

I only have 20 Hermit Crabs and a Shrimp

 

[gjustinj]

gjustinj, there's a way out, but you need to go to Petsmart or some place that sells inexpensive tanks: get two. Put fish in one, with filter, plenty of aeration, 79 degree warmth; you don't need a light. You follow the instructions for TTM given above. Get a bottle of Prime. This will let you use bleach to sanitize your equipment between changes: Prime kills chlorine.
TTM is relatively short duration. But you need to hold all fish in the plain glass (no sand, no rock) tank(s) for 72 days, and draw a line on the tank, so that you know where the water level should be kept (evaporation is constant and rapid). Always top off with freshwater (the salt part doesn't evaporate). Test your water for nitrate every day, and do a dip strip test (ask your local pond store) for ammonia twice a day. A pond dip strip is not a bad test---it's relatively cheap==and in your situation, you're going to need to watch those tanks closely. This exercise is either going to make you a proper reefer or drive you out of the hobby, and we all hope it's the former, and that you'll figure it out. WE're here to help: be honest about your readings and help us give you good advice. But they're all exposed now, and TTM is the best way to save this fish and protect the others.
Unfortunately the first thing the pest does is dive for your sandbed and reproduce, to infest more fish, so that's why the 72 day wait.

In the meanwhile, the section of stickies atop this forum is a must-read. You'll know a lot more when you get through it.

How big do the tanks need to be? I have Prime, big bottles.

 

[Tripod1404]

Hey there, its been about a month in a half, and no my nitrates levels have been great, have not gone over 10, and I've done a few 10-15% water changes too. I added very small fish, nothing big - the LFS told me because of the amount of water and my ammonia to 5 nitrites test in less than 24 hours that my tank was cycling very fast and I would be okay to add fish to it, they also told me every 1/2 inch to a gallon for salt water fish so I was doing really good. That's what I was told.

Never trust someone who makes money based on the number of stuff you buy from them. I am not saying that all LFS people will try to scam you. There are many LFS owners that are hobbyist as well as store owners. Some will be very honest with you and might even reject to sell certain fish/inverts based on your experience, tank size, etc. But there are also people who see this strictly as business. At least we have forums now, 15 years ago there wasn't much help except books and few reef clubs.

Btw, inch per gallon rule is never a good measure because it doesn't take into account the bulk of the fish. You can perhaps keep 10 two inch chromis in a 40 gallon tank but not a 20 inch grouper. There are better measures if you really want to use them based on the fish (like one 8 ich tang per 100 gallons or one 20 inch grouper per 200 gallons) but even these arent very good since each fish is different (a 10 inch sail fin tang and a 10 inch achilles tang are vastly different fish in terms of behavior and requirements). Best think to do is to search forums or ask people about the fish.

 

[Dale_M]

Sounds like they are snake oil salesmen, I would not believe another word from them.
There is a wealth of beginner information on this website, starting here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074
This information has been weeded out from the rest of the urban legend bull that you can read elsewhere.
You have mentioned that you have spent a load of money on this hobby already, well now is the time to spend a load of TIME reading and taking a step back.
Your best option may very well be to start over. At least you won't have to replace the equipment.

 

[gjustinj]

my LFS told me to come (wet pets) and they have a fish that will eat eggs off of the fish and reef safe oils that i could put in the water to kill the ich - is this not true?

 

[Dale_M]

NO!!!
Stop believing the snake oil salesman

 

[Tripod1404]

How big do the tanks need to be? I have Prime, big bottles.

Ideally two 40 breeders. You can also use them as quarantine and hospital tank afterwards for larger fish.

But for strictly this job, two 20 gallons or even two 10 gallons might work if you are good at keeping water parameters in check. Smaller the water volume, harder it will be to keep parameters in check.

Also you dont need to use RODI water for quarantines, just use tap water (as long as your water is safe for human drinking or have unusually high amounts of ammonia) and add prime.

 

[gjustinj]

it sounds to me like I need two fully operating 40 gallon aquariums with filters and heaters, and ohhh ARGHHHH WHY!!! i tried so hard and listened to so many peoples advice and LFS profesionals (who i guess screwed me) The hell with ELMERS, wet pets never sold me a bad fish!

Elmers ruined my aquarium! Why did nobody tell me to QUARANTINE and build a tank and oh just forget it!

over 3K and this is what i get! meh

 

[Tripod1404]

my LFS told me to come (wet pets) and they have a fish that will eat eggs off of the fish and reef safe oils that i could put in the water to kill the ich - is this not true?

Any medication strong enough to kill ich will also kill all your inverts or if it wont kill inverts, it will also not kill ich. If somebody is telling you something else, they are lying. All reef safe ich medications will reduce parasites numbers (not kill it) and slow down the disease progression at best.

The fish your lfs is talking about is cleaner wrasse which has terrible survival record in aquariums. It doesn't eat ich, it normally eats larger isopod parasites, dead scales from fish much larger than the ones in your tank (like jacks, groupers, eels, large tangs, large anglefish, sharks, etc) and/or clean their teeth and gills . If you get that fish, it will starve, start to harass your fish (since there are no large fish that seeks cleaning), get ich itself and die. Only people who had success with this fish keep it in very large tanks with large fish. Even than it is a hit or miss and the cleaner wrasse is known to stress other fish since they cannot escape from its "cleaning service".

 

[gjustinj]

I just don't get it how 30 people tell me one thing, and 30 more people tell me something else.. and I can't afford this!!!! I spent tons and i mean tons of money on this to do it right and even then.. nobody tells me what I need and left me to burn.

I don't know what to do - I can't afford what you want me to do. I can't afford 2 more 40 gallon tanks with heaters and power heads and all this ****.. i just can't do it..

The reason people fail is nobody tells them how to REALLY do this until its too late

 

[Tripod1404]

There is a huge subforum dedicated for this (stickies) --> http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=104

And this entry which is organized everything into a guide --> http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074

Why are you being angry to people here? I am sure nobody here would say not quarantining is okay.

 

[heathlindner25]

I just don't get it how 30 people tell me one thing, and 30 more people tell me something else.. and I can't afford this!!!! I spent tons and i mean tons of money on this to do it right and even then.. nobody tells me what I need and left me to burn.

I don't know what to do - I can't afford what you want me to do. I can't afford 2 more 40 gallon tanks with heaters and power heads and all this ****.. i just can't do it..

The reason people fail is nobody tells them how to REALLY do this until its too late

I think it's more about people wanting fish tanks and doing no research in the subject.
It's no different than buying horses, pigs, ducks, rabbits,goats, I would'nt buy any of those without finding out what they need.

 

[BeanMachine]

How long has your tank been set up? Your rocks look like you just added them the day before. Lots of good advice here. I would take a step back before adding more fish and get a qt regimen down while letting your tank mature a bit more without any fish.

 

[AnnaCassandra]

I just don't get it how 30 people tell me one thing, and 30 more people tell me something else.. and I can't afford this!!!! I spent tons and i mean tons of money on this to do it right and even then.. nobody tells me what I need and left me to burn.

I don't know what to do - I can't afford what you want me to do. I can't afford 2 more 40 gallon tanks with heaters and power heads and all this ****.. i just can't do it..

The reason people fail is nobody tells them how to REALLY do this until its too late

You don't NEED to go out and buy two 40 gal tanks with heaters and powerheads, if I were in your situation that's not what I would do. If you really don't want to take any of the fish you've purchased back to the fish store and you want to keep them all and make sure that they go back into your DT disease free, yea you should go out and buy two 40 gal tanks with heaters and powerheads, but that's probably more expensive than what you've already spent on livestock.

If it were me, and I were in your situation, I would get a 10 gal tank you use as a QT tank (find a used one if you can--cheap), I'd choose 2-3 fish that I spent the most $$ on and wanted to keep, put them in the QT and treat them for ich and rehome the rest or take them back to the store. WAIT the 72 days until your DT is ready for fish again, then put the fish you kept into the DT, and QT any new fish that you get for 4 weeks before adding them, get 1-2 at a time at the most.

Also, I ready through some of your old posts and MANY times people told you to slow down, take your time and do some reading, I realize there's a fair bit of conflicting advice when it comes to what equipment you "must have" and most of this is personal preference and a fair bit of reading and some budget constraints can send people leaning one way or another but the most consistent advice you'll get is to have patience.

 

[Sk8r]

Ow. Well, go to those stickies atop. I'd say two cheap 20's might do you: a 2 outlet bubbler and a filter you can change for ttm. The deal with cheap tanks is thin glass, but a qt tank doesn't have to support rock and sand and all that load, just hold 20 gallons of water. SHould be bare glass. Unhappily these fish that have come from the wild through the distribution system are prone to come in with passengers, and tangs, rabbits, and angels are all ich magnets, having thin slime coats. It's the species as well as the source. Good water and good slime coats will help your other fish in the treatment NOT get the pest. You might also, in the stickies, read up on the ich life cycle, so you know what you're dealing with.
THis has been a rough start, but hopefully we can get you through it. Once you get through the 'buying fish' phase (and for gosh sakes, dip all your corals [Revive, etc---get hte right brand for the species] then things calm down. No new fish, stable community, no problems. Ultimately.

 

[Stolireef]

Actually, the advice you have received here has been remarkably consistent. You basically have two choices to treat ich. Either you do the TTM or you treat with copper. Either way, you'll need at least one QT tank. If you treat with copper, you can get a 20 gallon with a bunch of pieces of cut PVC for hiding places a cheap heater and a hob filter. Maybe a cheap small powerhead. Total setup should be well under $100. Note that once you use copper in a tank, you can never use it for inverts but that's not really what it would be for anyway. If you do TTM (which is the best method but also requires at least two setups, you'll get the same result.

Other than that, virtually everyone has told you to (a) slow way down (b) stop listening to the LFS (c) SLOW DOWN (d) read the stickies carefully (e) SLOW DOWN (f) QT fish before adding them to your tank.

When your water chemistry in your tank stabilizes at Sk8tr's numbers, add one or two small hardy beginners fish (other than damsels which are hellions in a tank). Good starter fish include most clowns, royal gramma, basslets, blue green chromis, cardinals. Look at DFS website and make sure you look at their fish compatibilty guide. It can be a real godsend. Once your first tankmates have settled in for a month, add one or two more fish.

To put it in perspective, my tank has been cycling for about two months. After QT with copper, my first three fish in a 125 with a high end skimmer, full sump, chaeto, etc. are two small Bangaii Cardinals and a small yellow candy hogfish. That'll be it for at least a month. Right now I'm considering the purchase of another fish but it will be in QT for at least two to three weeks before it goes in the tank.

 

[nereefpat]

I think with the amount of fish OP have that would be very problematic. Hypo would cause a large scale die-off including much of the bacteria. There will be a huge ammonia issue from the combined effect of the die-off, reduction of bacteria population and waste of all those fish produce.

I agree that marine bacteria cannot live in freshwater, for osmotic reasons.

I have successfully dealt with ich in a display tank using hypo. Over a few days, s.g. can be lowered from the 1.025 to 1.009. I also agree that ammonia needs monitoring, with water changes and prime at the ready in case of emergency.

To the OP:
Powerheads and filters are not needed to do ttm. You can set up two 8$ rubbermaids each with its own cheap heater. Then buy one air pump and a bunch of airline for it that can be discarded after one use.

 

[Sk8r]

Whoever talked about fish eating off 'ich eggs' was not correct. The ich parasite's reproduction does not go down that path. What you see on the fish as bumps are not the ich itself, but pimple-like reaction. It can also exist in the gills, unseen.

I wholly sympathize, but you do not need to buy another cadillac system to qt or to do ttm. In point of fact, given enough heaters and cheap filters (use pillow floss instead of what they sell for fish) you could use polystyrene 5 gallon buckets, but it would be a LOT of work and mess. These fish can be housed together given enough aeration. You can also separate problem fish by eggcrate lighting grid set as a barrier in the qt tank. This is not a permanent setup: you should be able to fold it all up and dispose of it once you have your fish in and stable. I don't blame you for being upset.

YOu do have one other recourse, which is to return that fish to the store, wish them good luck, get some Stress Coat for your tank and just cross your fingers that nobody else succumbs, but the longer that infested fish stays in the tank, the more likely you're going to have a round of it IN the tank. Stress Coat might eventually win, and nobody else might die. But I STILL wouldn't get another fish for at least several months, beyond the 72 days, in case you have a 'hidden' case going on. There's some folklore that the stuff is 'always present' ---it isn't; and that it can lurk in anything ---a stretch; and that fish can throw it off---they can, and never have it again. If you go the 'rely on Stress Coat' route you may lose all your fish, in which case, a 72 day wait will be what you need, plus quarantineing new arrivals, but it IS an alternative.