Help! Purchased Flame Angel and I'm pretty sure it has ICH!
- Thread starter gjustinj
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You're talking about a tank with fish in it? YOU DO NOT HYPO A TANK WITH CORALS: THEY"LL DIE.
In general, to lower salinity in a functioning tank, you dip out saltwater and replace it with freshwater. This can be done fairly rapidly, oh, about 1.024 down to 1.020 in 15 minutes. Every 15 minutes, another .004 down. TO RAISE salinity where fish are involved, top off with saltwater only; OR remove some water and add stronger saltwater, but you must not RAISE salinity faster than .002 (that's a .002, note) every fifteen minutes, or you will destroy the fish's kidneys.
In general, to lower salinity in a functioning tank, you dip out saltwater and replace it with freshwater. This can be done fairly rapidly, oh, about 1.024 down to 1.020 in 15 minutes. Every 15 minutes, another .004 down. TO RAISE salinity where fish are involved, top off with saltwater only; OR remove some water and add stronger saltwater, but you must not RAISE salinity faster than .002 (that's a .002, note) every fifteen minutes, or you will destroy the fish's kidneys.
gjustinj
In Memoriam
Hi Sk8r,
It sounds like coral and the inverts are the ones that can die when HPYO's the DT (reducing the salinity down). What if I were to remove the coral and inverts a long bin and place it on top of one side of the aquarium so they they get the light they need, and they HPYO the DT for X days to kill all the ich on the fish and off the fish in the tank. Then get another big, fill it with clean saltwater, and move the coral and inverts to said bin, wait a while to make sure all the ich dies and move the inverts and coral back to the DT?
Wouldn't that be the smarter solution for the fish?
gjustinj
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Its called Parashield.
gjustinj
In Memoriam
I will definitely be researching corals, and duncan and zoanthid's since those are the two kinds I was told I had on here
The Duncan is really cool - I would like to get some mroe of those. When putting coral frags in your tank how far apart should they be placed from one another? It seems they don't like to be too close to one another.
gjustinj
In Memoriam
I will definitely be researching corals, and duncan and zoanthid's since those are the two kinds I was told I had on here The Duncan is really cool - I would like to get some mroe of those. When putting coral frags in your tank how far apart should they be placed from one another? It seems they don't like to be too close to one another. To clarify I won't be adding anything until this ich issue is situated ( if it is ich )
The Duncan is really cool - I would like to get some mroe of those. When putting coral frags in your tank how far apart should they be placed from one another? It seems they don't like to be too close to one another. To clarify I won't be adding anything until this ich issue is situated ( if it is ich )
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gjustinj
In Memoriam
Got it 6 inch circumference all around
What about my idea for removing coral and inverts (easier to catch) to a smaller tank, or bin and move might lighting there, etc and they perform HYPO on the DT 125G?
Tripod1404
Active member
If you hypo the DT, you will need to cycle it again. It will kill most of your bacteria population (and every other thing on your live rock and sand bed like pods, worms and countless other microfauna, protozoa, algae, etc.). This will cause ammonia because of the die-off and lack of bacteria that process ammonia from fish. So there will also be a massive ammonia spike for first week or so and you would constantly need to change water (like every 6 hours or so for the fist couple of days). Keep in mind skimmer would not function in hypo water so that is another problem. And after everything is over, you will need to cycle your tank again which will most likely cause a algae bloom since you will already have fish in it.
Also I dont think corals would live in a container next to the aquarium. Other inverts would be fine but corals need flow and considerably more light.
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Tripod1404
Active member
Got it 6 inch circumference all around
What about my idea for removing coral and inverts (easier to catch) to a smaller tank, or bin and move might lighting there, etc and they perform HYPO on the DT 125G?
Make sure you also consider their future growth. If they are 6 inch apart today, in 2 years that can be next to each other
. It is very hard to remove corals once they spread onto the live rock. You will need to break the skeleton and glue it somewhere else. Since you have lots of empty space right now, try to place the as separated as possible while still taking into account the light and flow requirement of each coral.
gjustinj
In Memoriam
Thanks, I would have put the RB LED light over the coral for sure, but it sounds wore to perform HYPO on the entire tank, so by performing HYPO on the fish only in a 20G tank, what takes the ich out of the DT itself? Is it just that they will live but not find a host so die because they can't attack invert or coral? I assume turning up my tank too high would cause problems.
I am running 82 degrees on my DT right now just so that oil works for their skin properly.
Tripod1404
Active member
Yeah I wouldn't hypo the DT, it would cause a lot of trouble down the road.
Yes you are correct, ich dies because it cannot find any host to infect. Ich cannot reproduce without fish, so it dies out. The amount of time it can live on the sand bed without the fish is variable. Longest time ever measured is around 8 weeks (there is some evidence so strains can go up to 72 days but 8 weeks is okay 99.99% of the time), so DT need to be fish free for at least 8 weeks.
Dont heat it up too much, it will kill your corals (I would not go above 80). Also ich attaches and damages the gills of the fish, this makes it harder for them to get enough oxygen. One of the later symptoms of ich is rapid breathing. Warm water can keep less oxygen which can suffocate a fish that is already experiencing gill damage.
gjustinj
In Memoriam
Thanks Tripod! I will reduce it down to 80! Okay, I understand now regarding why the ich dies in DT. So then when I add the fish to the 20G for and reduce the salinity in a 24 hour period down 1.008 that also kills the ich in the QT. How long before the fish go back into the tank?
This is calling HYPO?
Tripod1404
Active member
Hypo stands for hyposalinity (low salinity).
Yes hypo kills the ich. Most saltwater single celled organisms and/or saltwater organisms without a water impermeable skin and advanced kidneys cannot survive in water with lower salinity. This is why I advised not to hypo the whole DT.
At molecular level what happens is; water rushes inside the cells that already have high internal salt concentration (osmosis), cells rapidly expand and burst. This is why ich dies, it is also why most of the "life" in you dt dies if you hypo it.
Fish can survive because saltwater fish constantly drink water and their kidneys filter-out the salt. Unless you go fully freshwater, their kidneys can adapt. You can lower salinity faster since kidneys just need to excrete extra water that rushed in (so they pee a lot similar to when you drink a lot of fluids) but you need to increase salinity slower since in that case their kidneys need to filter out salt which is a harder process.
Your dt needs to be fish free for at least 8 weeks since ich might still be in the sand bed before that. So fish cannot go into DT before 8 weeks or all your efforts will go to waste. Managing fish in a 20 gallon tank for 6 weeks and then still having ich is far worse than waiting 8 weeks, dont rush it.
Time ich feeds on the fish is variable but it is anywhere from 3-28 days. Hypo can most effectively kill ich when it is not on fish. When on fish, ich take advantage of the water impermeable skin of the host and therefore can survive. So in 4 weeks or so your fish should be ich free, but I would still keep them in hypo for at least 8 weeks just in case (there are some ich strains that are at least partially resistant to hypo; longer you keep the water in hypo, less likely such a strain can live through the procedure). During the hypo procedure your fish should have no spots after 3-4 weeks, if they are showing ich spots either your salinity is wrong or you have a very hypo resistant strain. In that case you might decide to switch to a different treatment but such strains are very rare.
gjustinj
In Memoriam
Does using a big plastic bin from walmart or home depot make it less stressful for the fish than using a 20 gallon aquarium? I would think I could get one cheap, a heater, and some air bubbles, or even a powerhead and somehow attach it to the plastic bin (keep the cats out of the room the QT gets setup in).
Do I take water of the current DT to create the QT? I believe this was mentioned earlier, to create your own new water for the QT and slowly reduce the salt over 24 hours from 1.024/25 to 1.008. But I have a complete eco system in the DT that the QT will not have - won't that make breaking down their ammonia to nitrites to nitrates really difficult without it? I recall someone mentioning to add bacteria to the QT, but i had to cycle my tank for over a month before putting fish in there - why is this different?
Tripod1404
Active member
You can use whatever container you want as long as it is safe to use with saltwater and fish. Only potential problem is; it would be hard to observe the fish in a plastic bin. You just need a heater, air stone (or better; sponge filter) and some pwc elbows for fish to hide. No need for a powerhead, as it will just blast fish in such a small volume.
I generally take water from my DT and use that for first filling. But yet my dt doesn't have any pests in it. For the first time you are filling out the qt, I think it would be okay to use DT water. But after that use freshly made saltwater (like for water changes in qt and stuff, you will first just use RODI water and after that you wont need to use much salt to make 1.008 anyways).
The thing you describe is the most common problem with qt. You need to monitor ammonia and nitrite and be ready to make a water change in moments notice.Therefore always have extra water ready. Dont worry about nitrate as it is far less toxic. I normally keep the sponge of sponge filter in my sump and use that, so it has bacteria ready on it. Hypo would kill most but still better than nothing. You can use bacteria in bottle but dont use a lot since most will die and can cause additional ammonia. If you have any ceramic balls or similar stuff somewhere in your tank, sump, filter, etc; you can also put small amounts of these from the main tank to seed the qt. You can also use ammonia detoxifiers to combat ammonia, read their description carefully to understand what they do. Some release ammonia back after some point, you need to make sure they are safe to use and safe to use for how long. Do not constantly add bacteria in bottle to tank as it will either spike ammonia or cause a bacteria bloom. If you need to add bacteria in bottle, do it just once.
The main difference with DT is; water volume is smaller so you can make larger water changes and dilute ammonia. Also it is an emergency situation.
I generally take water from my DT and use that for first filling. But yet my dt doesn't have any pests in it. For the first time you are filling out the qt, I think it would be okay to use DT water. But after that use freshly made saltwater (like for water changes in qt and stuff, you will first just use RODI water and after that you wont need to use much salt to make 1.008 anyways).
The thing you describe is the most common problem with qt. You need to monitor ammonia and nitrite and be ready to make a water change in moments notice.Therefore always have extra water ready. Dont worry about nitrate as it is far less toxic. I normally keep the sponge of sponge filter in my sump and use that, so it has bacteria ready on it. Hypo would kill most but still better than nothing. You can use bacteria in bottle but dont use a lot since most will die and can cause additional ammonia. If you have any ceramic balls or similar stuff somewhere in your tank, sump, filter, etc; you can also put small amounts of these from the main tank to seed the qt. You can also use ammonia detoxifiers to combat ammonia, read their description carefully to understand what they do. Some release ammonia back after some point, you need to make sure they are safe to use and safe to use for how long. Do not constantly add bacteria in bottle to tank as it will either spike ammonia or cause a bacteria bloom. If you need to add bacteria in bottle, do it just once.
The main difference with DT is; water volume is smaller so you can make larger water changes and dilute ammonia. Also it is an emergency situation.
Is not too late.
Raise the temperature of your tank to 84+ and keep it there for at least a week. Yes I said that. Your corals will stress but will not die. Once free in my tank catching anything is impossible without breaking it down. I've been doing this for 8 years. First 2 years on my main display tank (125 gallons) loaded with sps as I didn't have a QT (That's the QT now for my 600 gallon reef)
Disclaimer....
Reef nerds please don't freak out, this works! proven over and over. Fish saved 17, losses 2, you do the math.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
heathlindner25
New member
Well there it is..... easy peasy lemon squeezy
Re the temperature increase killing ich: I have not BOUGHT a fish that proved to have ich since 2004. You can't say just because you were lucky---that a method works. It's like whistling to keep the elephants away: just because you don't see any elephants is no sign that the method works.
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