Help with SPS color

[kissman]

I use the HC 736 which reads in ppb which is supposed to be more accurate. A difference of .04ppb is a lot different than a difference in .04ppm. I have tested mine against the Red Sea Pro PO4 test kit and it seems spot on. I hate color matches but, when I run the test with RSP the colors is between .06-.08 and Hanna at 20ppb equals .06ppm and 25ppb equals .08. Thanks for the read I am going to read it now!

 

[kissman]

For all those following this thread I thought you might want to check out this thread in the Advanced Topics forum. It has some very good, relevant data...

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2253547&page=2

For the record, I am running ecotech Radions, po4 .12 and 0 nitrates. Dkh~10.8, Ca 400, Mg 1290, ph 8.3. My acros have been getting pale, but I do have great PE. So what next? I plan on reducing the intensity of my lighting plus reducing Dkh along with increased feedings. I have also stopped GFO.

I'll let you know how it goes in about a month.

Cheers.

What a great read thanks for the link! It sounds a lot like what I am trying to do. I think a higher nutrient level will bring my color back as well as fuel so I can bump up my Alk and have better growth.

 

[MHG]

The piece I don't understand is that the algae is consuming it making it read zero when measuring. And when this happens it is considered bad, but people create turf algae scrubbers that basically are doing the same thing and it is considered a good thing.

Well cheato does the same thing. However if you have low nitrates the cheato does not grow and eventually dies. HA should be looked at like a weed in your lawn. It will grow in nutrient deficient dirt with no problem. But your grass requires nitrogen to grow lush and green. If the grass is malnourished then the weeds will take over. If the grass has what it needs it will be healthy and the weeds will grow but will not take over....eventually you need to kill the weeds...

That is where graisers come in....the only place in my talk that has HA is the return output because the snails can not get to it....


All my opinion of course....


I would like to find a way to raise nitrates without raising phosphates.... Kno3 is going to add potassium and I have plenty of that....

 

[kissman]

Corals are still looking a little better, still adding Reef Energy and NO3 is still zero. So still trying to get it to climb. I will try and get some pics tonight and see if I can catch the color thats coming back. Still not really enought to catch with DSLR. Still not getting much PE except when I feed the Energy.

 

[jer77]

How old is your tank? Maybe you've already gone over that, but it takes a long time of just leaving the biological workings of the whole system, including the microbiological chemistry and microfauna, alone to find their own balance. I tried dosing carbon once a few different ways and experienced the same issues your having. I'm worried whatever chemicals you were putting in your tank like the vinegar may have upset that balance. Sure the science proves the bacteria will use it to assimilate N/P in the short term,which may shock the corals, but in the long term consequences of the increase in the bacteria are unpredictable. I try not to even add amino acids or phyto unless the coral or invert really needs it.

I like to use macroalgae in my sump, many kinds besides just chaeto. I may also suggest like someone else did, more water motion especially in a 55g couldn't hurt. You don't need to blast your corals for a mixed reef, but directing some small pumps towards the sandbed may help to increase your nutrients which you seem intent on accomplishing. All the nutrients your tank really needs in on the very top layer of your sandbeds in your DT and your sump and hiding on the outer layer of your LR.

Along the lines of increasing the color of your corals including sps, my suggestion would to just give it some time and slowly increase the light to the sps. How long did you take to acclimate them from raising their level from when you bought them?

 

[kissman]

How old is your tank? Maybe you've already gone over that, but it takes a long time of just leaving the biological workings of the whole system, including the microbiological chemistry and microfauna, alone to find their own balance. I tried dosing carbon once a few different ways and experienced the same issues your having. I'm worried whatever chemicals you were putting in your tank like the vinegar may have upset that balance. Sure the science proves the bacteria will use it to assimilate N/P in the short term,which may shock the corals, but in the long term consequences of the increase in the bacteria are unpredictable. I try not to even add amino acids or phyto unless the coral or invert really needs it.

I like to use macroalgae in my sump, many kinds besides just chaeto. I may also suggest like someone else did, more water motion especially in a 55g couldn't hurt. You don't need to blast your corals for a mixed reef, but directing some small pumps towards the sandbed may help to increase your nutrients which you seem intent on accomplishing. All the nutrients your tank really needs in on the very top layer of your sandbeds in your DT and your sump and hiding on the outer layer of your LR.

Along the lines of increasing the color of your corals including sps, my suggestion would to just give it some time and slowly increase the light to the sps. How long did you take to acclimate them from raising their level from when you bought them?

Going to try and answer your questions as they come to while I read your suggestions. Sorry if they seem short. I am at work some trying to make it quick. Tank has been up for bout 7-8 years. I dosed vinegar for a maybe 6 months. Because i was running such a low nutrient system I think my corals def need the Ammino Acids and Vitamins. In my sumo I actually have chaeto, some mangroves, and some halmidia(spelling). Water motion I think i have enough with my 2 Hydor 4's I am at about 50x turn over in display. I have the powerheads one is pointed towards the surface and back glass, the other is pointed towards the sand and front glass. My return is split by a Loc-Lin system pointed towards the front corners of the tank. One problem with a 55g is powerheads take up a lot of space. Sure I would love to have 1 or 2 small nano powerheads on the back glass to cause a different current but they take up a lot space. I also use a turkey baster to blow stuff off of my live rock twice a week to feed corals. When I first got the SPS i placed them on the sand for about a week and then moved them up once a week till they got to where they are.

 

[Spyderturbo007]

I'm going to rock the boat on this one, but hey, it's the "arena of ideas".

I'm battling the same issue of my corals bleaching. I really don't buy the low phosphate and low nitrate theory. That's what everyone keeps saying, but I have yet to find anyone that has shown that to be a fact. If you look at the levels in the ocean, I don't really think that any of us are that low. However, if you compare what is considered an acceptable alkalinity range, typically our tanks are much higher than the oceans concentration.

From what I've read, most oceans are in the neighborhood of 7.5dkh whereas most of us run between 9-11dkh. That is the route I'm pursuing right now. I've dropped my Alkalinity from ~10.5dkh down to 8dkh over the last month or so and I'm going to try and aim for a target of 7.5dkh. I've also dropped my photo period and only run all 4 bulbs for 3 hours.

So far, my Hammer coral has regained a lot of it's color and my nitrates and phosphates are still 0ppm. My Stylophora is definitely still bleached, but I'm honestly not sure about my older Acro frag. To me it looks bleached because it's lighter than it was when I bought it, but I'm not sure if it's bleached or not. It has went from a purple color to almost a yellow color with purple tips. It looks like the Acro on the front of the Red Sea Pro Magnesium box.

I'm hoping that once I get the Alkalinity down to 7.5dkh that everything will regain it's color. I also purchased some new SPS and a frogspawn over the weekend so we'll see what happens with them. Hopefully they keep their color.

Oh, and the hammer coral actually split while it was bleached and now has 3 head as opposed to 2.


Hammer coral when purchased.




After bleaching:




About 2 weeks after dropping the Alkalinity to 8.5dkh from 10.5dkh and the photo period.

[/QUOTE]

Now (Sorry about the quality, but I cropped it out of a FTS I had):




Acropora - When purchased: I'm not sure if it's bleached or not because it looks just like the front of the Red Sea Mg Test box.





Now:




So my argument is that if it's low nutrient, then how did my Hammer coral regain it's color from dropping the photo period and Alkalinity? I'll keep updating this thread as things progress and hopefully between all of us we can nail down this issue.

 

[kissman]

please do update, seems we def have the same problem. I have a similar hammer mine is reversed purple stalks, green tips. Since I bought it you can see through the stalks and have no color but still have green tips. My corals are def getting color back. I was going to try and get a pic last night but never got the chance. I am running my lights all 6 for 8 hours and 2 for 1 hour on each end so a total of 10 hours. I have started 2 part dosing from kalk so I am still trying to dial my alk in and get as stable as possible but trying to dial it in about 8.2/8.3 dKH.

 

[kissman]

starting to see much better PE! Plyps are actually extending some during the day. Before they only came out when lights were off. I have also removed some Macro again from sump. This is the second time, I pulled some out a week or two ago just didn't want to pull a bunch out all at once. I am still trying to raise NO3 from zero to 1-2ppm. Going away for the weekend so I am looking forward to seeing if there is any difference when I return. Hard to see a lot when you look at the tank every night.

 

[rbp 4 135]

I'll throw out an update.

yesterday I mounted up my additional led supplement, and got them fired up over the tank. I'm liking the color blend much better. My green monti I added is still holding great color for now, and the purple/pink poci I added at the same time looks to be encrusting over some areas where it had STN from the base up (got it this way).

 

[kissman]

I wish I could add some LEDS to my setup. I have no way of hanging my fixture where I am living now since I am renting. However I am going to be moving by the end of the year to my girlfriends house, since we are expecting a baby in May. At that point I am hoping to be able to do an upgrade at that point to a 90 or 120 and will either go LED or MH/T5 combo. I really want to go LEDS with either the AI Vega or the Radions. But, I have seen so much success with MH/T5 Combo's. They are tried and true!

 

[artkwan]

LEDs are always getting better and better...

 

[trinity1012]

kissman i have seen this thread explode,i watched it when you first started it wow u got some great info!!!
this thread helped tons of people!!:spin3:
how are your corals doin since you started this?

 

[kissman]

kissman i have seen this thread explode,i watched it when you first started it wow u got some great info!!!
this thread helped tons of people!!:spin3:
how are your corals doin since you started this?

I am glad this theard has helped tons of people. Thats what its here for and why I keep updating it, I am glad people are sticking with it and posteing there updates as well. My colors are improving slowly but they are! I can see a difference I need to get my DSLR out and see if I can catch the difference yet. I have better PE during the day, better colors, starting to see what might be some growth. I am watching one frag in perticular and I have noticed on the back side there is what looks to be some new growth. The acro is green and the pink tips and pink plyps are back, though they are small they are back. My Garf Bonsi has gone from a very light grey to, to a grey/purple. I have a acro that was all blue with blue polyps, the blue is coming back and the polyps are starting to come out but they are green this time. I have a few frags that I broke off when moving my rock around and have moved them to a rack right near the surface of the water to see if stronger light has any effect. So far they look the same as the ones half way. I have a birds nest that I thought was gone, I mean the ends were trurning black. Now the polyps are back and growing its back to a brown/orange with green tips. My plate coral which was a deep green and red is starting to come back as well. Its a light green and pink. I am still feeding heavy, still adding Red Sea Energy A&B. Pulled out a lot more macro last night trying to get NO3 above 0 would like it to be 1ppm. PO4 is holding steady at .04-.06.

 

[trinity1012]

awesome sounds like things are turning around for you.glad to hear it. it sucks when people struggle to get the beautiful colors to come through.
from all the work you have done to this point it only gets better.it will pay off soon enough.good job:beer:

 

[likefish]

i have been following along and pretty much following the same practices on my 120 and having decent sucess with return of colors. Recently we have had some cold temps in FLA and my tank temp has been fluctuating a good bit. (heater too small). I have immediatly noticed a decrease in polyps ext. and generaly coral sjust look ****ed. Amazing how negative change is in a tank!

I know the info is burried in the thread but what are you currently feeding and when?

I feed flakes randomly, pellets randomly and almost daily i feed a frozen food "coctail" similar to "rods". I am not measuring my nutrients, just watching my algae growh rates on my glass as an indicator of nutrient levels. Until the temp swing things were doing well.

I keep hearing about cyclopeese and other phyto/zoo plankton additives. Are these products well marketed snake oil or are people having measurable results from using them. My theory has been that a diversity of products fed should provide a well rounded fish poop and provide what the tank needs. Opinions?

 

[kissman]

I actually cut skimmer off and powerheads off for about 30min. I take some tank water not alot in a cup mix Red Sea Energy A&B in it. I then form a cloud around each one of my SPS corals with it every day. Twice a week i add either cyclopseez, reef chili, or frozen rotifers to feed corals. To feed fish i have some frozen food i made, i have mysis shrimp, brine shrimp, flake foods, and pellets. I rotate thos each day. Temp swings are bad i had a swing of 5 degrees down to 74 when i was out of town and my return pump locked up my heater is in my sump so no water was getting to display

 

[MHG]

i have been following along and pretty much following the same practices on my 120 and having decent sucess with return of colors. Recently we have had some cold temps in FLA and my tank temp has been fluctuating a good bit. (heater too small). I have immediatly noticed a decrease in polyps ext. and generaly coral sjust look ****ed. Amazing how negative change is in a tank!

I know the info is burried in the thread but what are you currently feeding and when?

I feed flakes randomly, pellets randomly and almost daily i feed a frozen food "coctail" similar to "rods". I am not measuring my nutrients, just watching my algae growh rates on my glass as an indicator of nutrient levels. Until the temp swing things were doing well.

I keep hearing about cyclopeese and other phyto/zoo plankton additives. Are these products well marketed snake oil or are people having measurable results from using them. My theory has been that a diversity of products fed should provide a well rounded fish poop and provide what the tank needs. Opinions?

Well cyclopeez is a food and I would not call any food snake oil... IMO it is just one frequently found item in many off the shelf blended coral foods. Because I can get it at several stores locally, I use it in my own blend of coral food. I have been target feeding it for about a month and a Hal's and I have noticed better growth but unless I had two different systems and used it in one and not the other there is no way to tell if I am benefiting from its use over the other products in my food. I have noticed improved growth..

 

[basser1]

Well cyclopeez is a food and I would not call any food snake oil... IMO it is just one frequently found item in many off the shelf blended coral foods. Because I can get it at several stores locally, I use it in my own blend of coral food. I have been target feeding it for about a month and a Hal's and I have noticed better growth but unless I had two different systems and used it in one and not the other there is no way to tell if I am benefiting from its use over the other products in my food. I have noticed improved growth..

Cyclopeeze is definately not snake oil..... more like crack for your corals and fish. I've never seen PE like I do after I've fed it!

 

[kissman]

I will add this little bit however i have no idea if true. I was told by 2 experts with gorgeous tanks that reef chili, cyclops, etc will do nothing for sps because they are to large directly. Sps will only feed off of liquid foods.