Hey newbie !!! Stop and read this !!!

Definitely a rant but I have to agree 100% with you!

I don't think newbies should get jumped on necessarily, but if they are argumentative and offended with the information they receive they need to adjust their attitude.

It's human nature to be doing things "right" so it can be hard to hear that you've made a poor decision. But face up to it and make it right.
 
I'll just add, I'm not trying to insult anyone personally. I'm not talking to anyone directly. I want everyone to be successful. The more we succeed, the more we are aquaculturing, the more we can share information and the more we can share these animals and take pressure off the reefs.

And I'm definitely not encouraging jumping on a newbie. Just "ranting" that "some" newbies need to understand the big picture. :)
 
I agree with what you have said Cuzza.

Quite awhile ago I would respond to people and tell them to look at the top of the forum for the "set up" Sticky it will answer your question and more. A few more posts about the same thing. It must be to hard to find the sticky.

I start linking the sticky in the reply surely this will help. More posts I need help here.

I think well there is a lot of "stuff" in that sticky. So I link the specific topic surely that will do the trick. More posts of help needed.

Now I think surely they have read the link. I reply what part of the sticky link did you not understand. The response, I don't have time to read that I got problems help me.

At that point I cut my time loss and move on.
 
IMO one thing you have overlooked is a lot of people start off solely relying on advise from their LFS. I did when I first started, from a smaller less experienced store (they are no longer in business)

It was some time in before I got on to this forum. When I wanted to go further than I was getting success at this time. I think many people are in the same situation, they come looking after they have already started. This post I feel belittles them (no offence)

Yes, it does contain good advise. But for someone who has come here after issues it may intimidate them from seeking help. Those who don't care about losing the fish won't take the time to come here and find out where they went wrong. They would just keep replacing their fish.

Do you need a huge budget with mass spare cash? No, not at all. You can run these tanks on a shoestring budget, depending on how you are stocked. For me on salt and food it costs about $20 a month to run my tanks. That's less then I spend on dog food in a month.
 
Perhaps, but in the age of the Internet I'd like to believe the first place people go for information is the web. When I started to entertain having a marine system the first thing I did was Google "Saltwater Aquarium". Guess what I found? :) And here I am, on RC and a member of the Tampa Bay Reef Club.
 
Perhaps, but in the age of the Internet I'd like to believe the first place people go for information is the web. When I started to entertain having a marine system the first thing I did was Google "Saltwater Aquarium". Guess what I found? :) And here I am, on RC and a member of the Tampa Bay Reef Club.

Books are so old school. LOL. I'm 54 and I lived at the library when I was younger, or bought books and magazines or got subscriptions. Thank God for the internet!
 
I agree with what you have said Cuzza.

Quite awhile ago I would respond to people and tell them to look at the top of the forum for the "set up" Sticky it will answer your question and more. A few more posts about the same thing. It must be to hard to find the sticky.

I start linking the sticky in the reply surely this will help. More posts I need help here.

I think well there is a lot of "stuff" in that sticky. So I link the specific topic surely that will do the trick. More posts of help needed.

Now I think surely they have read the link. I reply what part of the sticky link did you not understand. The response, I don't have time to read that I got problems help me.

At that point I cut my time loss and move on.

I hear ya. And I know you are always trying to help people out. I'm always looking for that unanswered thread just to help. Sometimes it feels like a slap in the face. Is it the self entitlement brat syndrome carrying over to fish forums? The mentality you owe me something? I don't know. But like you said, "at some point you just have to move on".
 
I have owned saltwater fish only tanks for years. When I went down with a stroke that left me unable to work I needed a hobby. I always loved reef tanks. I said what the hell and did some research. I was a victim of petco. I bought my liverock from an online dealer. Had a crappy skimmer from amazon, a hob filter, two weak powerheads, and T5 lights. I agree you really need a ton of research! Through this forum and books I now have to of the line equipment, and have learned a ton. My wife tells me I treat my tank better than or two little girls. I enjoy going to my LFS with my four year old, she know as much as I do. We both spend hours just watching the tank and learning.
 
If I waited until I was reasonably sure I knew enough to to choose and care for live things in my aquarium it would probably be at least 18 months before I did it. Which is about where I'm at!

And before anything live goes in there will be a god parent who is both able and committed to take care of things in the event that I become unable to.
 
To the op and the deterrents. I 100% agree with the op's points. I'm new to marine keeping myself (year and half or so), I think your points were blunt and to the point as you stated they were going to be from the beginning. I wouldn't consider anyone that keeps marine life an elitist, but you can't go into this hobby with the mindset that you had maintaining a gold fish tank. Whether your rich or poor is irrelevant. There are necessities to keep marine life alive and I'm glad you pointed it all out. There are far too many threads of please help why did my blue tang in my 10 gallon tank just die. I think its important for everyone to realize that patience is key. There are a lot of threads also saying, ok I'm 1 day into my cycle , whats wrong with this parameter and that. I am an impatient person myself, and have definitely rushed things in this hobby, and I try daily to learn from my mistakes. Sometimes you just gotta sit back and let it ride.

Edit: I'm not opposed to the I'm on day 1 of new cycle threads, as I understand many are just excited and looking for input. Overall, I'm just glad the OP told it like it is. Sometimes that's how it needs to be. I put a yellow tang in my first ever saltwater tank (a 20 long), and after posting pics of it on here, I got much backlash which drove me to return it to the LFS.
 
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I completely understand what you're trying to say but the reality of it is not everybody is as passionate about the hobby as you, myself or others. Wealthy or Poor has nothing to do with it, it's the research that makes a hobbyist successful, you can spend a ton of money in this hobby or very little and still be successful. Unfortunately we're dealing with humans and humans by nature make mistakes, it's learning from these mistakes that make us better. I started in this hobby around 1989 and made plenty of mistakes, resources were very scarce during that time, nowadays there's a ton of information out there but again not everyone is as passionate to do the research (unfortunately) but that's just the way it is and I doubt it will ever change. I get upset as well when I see certain posts but unfortunately the posts will continue until these forums close. Sad part is, think how many clown fish and anemones perished after the movie (Finding you know who) The best thing we can do is keep staring the new hobbyist in the right direction even if that means repeating yourself over and over again but it will always continue to be an ongoing process because humans will find an excuse to go the direction they want. So if 20 people say no you can't or you shouldn't ever, one person will says it's completely fine, that just gave the OP 1 excuse to move forward in the wrong direction.
 
Yeup! I'll admit I was one of those noobs who did a quick bit of research and ran out to petsmart and got the tank that suited my fancy and expected it to be easy peasy. ...I was wrong....I've spent far money than I should have on equipment to make the system suitable and it's a constant work in progress.....The right I did was taking my time with stocking the tank....still only 4 fish and 3 corals after a couple months....but yeah now I'm putting barely used hang on filters and skimmers up for sale because I built a sump etc.....impatience was my issue and I've learned from it!
 
+1 on the Stickifying of this thread.

As one of the younger (less than 21 years of age) hobbyists, what you said really resonated with me. I actually need to show my dad this thread (he thinks that goldfish can live in bowls and tangs can live in 29 gallon aquariums, and both can be "happy" because of his childhood). That being said, here's my 2 cents on your 5 points.

#1: okay, so maybe you do need more money than that required for a stamp collection. Do I need to be the son of Bill Gates to succeed at this though? No. With the proper research, some tanks can be made beautiful with very little money, for example, a 20 gallon softie reef. As long as things are kept in moderation (hardier corals, small fish bioload, etc.), and you do comparison shopping, then things don't have to be as expensive as "X User" 's 180 gallon SPS reef, complete with robot servant. Really, just doing research can help limit costs (i.e. Petco's $/gallon sale, buying quality equipment off of people retiring from the hobby, etc.).

#2: I'm a high school student. I'm also a member of multiple extracurricular activities, and do volunteer work. About half of my weekends and school holidays are perpetuated with school work. Yet, somehow, I'm still here, and advancing. You don't need to have multiple hours every day. At best, I can afford 1-2 hours of work on my tanks maybe 2x a week (not counting adding fish food). That's enough time to do tests, empty the skimmer cup, do a water change, and enjoy my fish/corals.

#3: My schoolmates made fun of me when I brought copies of FAMA, AFI, and fish breeding/care books to school. But really, this point is spot on. Without having the internet, and books to help, I would have given up this hobby due to failure years ago. However, I look at my tank, and sometimes find something so absolutely amazing and new, that I've never read about before. How am I supposed to know that the fluffy cotton ball things with spouts are pineapple sponges? No research that I've done has ever detailed what pineapple sponges are, nor vermetid snails. Heck, I even thought once that the Acetabularia algae growing on a snail shell was a parasite growing off of the snail! One of the good things about reefing (and live rock), is the vast amounts of what-is-that's that pop up.

#4: ohh, Dolores Umbridge quote right here: "Progress for the sake of Progress must be discouraged....let us prune practices that ought to be...prohibited!" (HP: OoTP) A lot of this hobby is no. However, once we have experience under our belt, don't we want to create progress, or hinder it? A better way would be to say "Don't start experimenting until after you have experience!" or something similar. After people get down the basics, then it's their turn to have at the virtual limelight, by doing things that are frowned upon (cough*Goniopora*cough)

#5: It's funny, how much emphasis I put on my fishes lives. When I put out the pond-vat-tub thing this summer, my dad wants to put in goldfish. Do I have room indoors for goldfish? No. His response? They'll die before winter. That maybe true. Maybe the fish will die before they reach adulthood/maximum size. But you new reefers out there, if you're reading, then make plans for your fish. It's saddening to see that tiny little hippo tang you bought for the 29 gallon, be cramped in its space due to you.

A lot of your points actually revolve around each other. Maybe you should work with somebody on creating an aquarium version of Hammurabi's Code, or something similar? Just basic stuff.
 
Perhaps, but in the age of the Internet I'd like to believe the first place people go for information is the web. When I started to entertain having a marine system the first thing I did was Google "Saltwater Aquarium". Guess what I found? :) And here I am, on RC and a member of the Tampa Bay Reef Club.


Unfortunately in this age of the Internet there are still people who are very net shy and only go online when forced. These are the folks who listen to everything the LFS says and only show up here as a last resort. These are also the folks who are more reluctant to take advice from "interweb people."

Nonetheless I agree. Research and patience are key in this hobby. If you ask for advice then actually consider what you are told instead of fishing until you get the answer you want to see.
 
What a world it would be if everybody was perfect, nary a fish nor coral would be lost.
Not a very friendly post, in my opinion.
Make that post a sticky and you'll see alot less people asking for help as you've already labeled them a failure.
Got to this post and decided I needed to say something as well...

Yes, I absolutely 100% agree with everything to OP said. I cringe a little every time I see one of those "everything died" threads and lament the imbecile who wrought such havoc on such wonderful creatures.

BUT

At the same time, how many people researching are you going to run off? I'm still fairly new, if I saw this thread a year ago I'd have said "F-- y'all" and missed out on some information that has saved my tank countless times. What happens when you have some kid who wants to learn about marine biology comes in and reads this? What happens when he quits because our factory settings don't come with 15 years salt experience pre-installed? That kid might be the one who figures out how to save our oceans and you just ran him off...

Solution, put a preface that says this is some tough love because I want you to succeed or something encouraging... don't be a damn salt nazi... no salt for you..
 
Big, it's ok. I don't expect everyone to agree with my approach. I'm not an expert in psychology, but common sense tells me what works for some, doesn't work for others. However, your point of view is only one way to look at.

For example, and this is all just theoretical, just like what you suggested, but say 20 people people began to entertain reefing. 10 of them had the mindset this should be easy and I'm going to try to do this fast and cheap, but I don't want to fail. The second 10 simply don't know what it takes and are on the fence.

Assume they all read this thread and the result is the first 10 now realize what it takes to be a hobbyist and slow down, buy the right equipment and do the research because they don't want to fail. As a result they succeed with minimal losses.

The second set of 10 read this thread and 5 of them realize, whoa, this really isn't what I want to get into. And the other 5 realize now what it takes and again slow down, buy the right equipment and do the research because nobody wants to fail.

So you see, instead of having 20 people do a complete hack job on their tank and kill a 100 fish before they figure it out, meanwhile 5 of them were going to drop out of the hobby anyway, we now have 15 quality newbies with maybe 0-15 fish loses and the 5 that really should have never been in the hobby, aren't.

Did this thread save 85 fish, purge 5 people who shouldn't be hobbyist and created 15 more quality hobbyist? Well we don't and won't ever know. It's all speculation and I'm just going to go ahead and speculate that it did. :lmao:
 
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To the OP....Well stated. Lost of people can learn a ton by reading your post with an open mind and genuine interest in succeeding in reefkeeping.
 
Solution, put a preface that says this is some tough love because I want you to succeed or something encouraging... don't be a damn salt nazi... no salt for you..

Weeeelp as the earth gets older our society gets softer and like you suggested, a smidge of "sunshines and rainbows encouragement" should always come along "lectures" like cuzza's post.

Nothing *wrong* with that mentality.

On the other hand, the lack of intiative to learn the basics and expecting to get accurate answers in a snap just goes to show how undedicated a hobbyist is. Personally like many of you who posted here, the thirst for knowledge about marine life drives us to research and learn them by ourselves.

To put things into perspective, my short period of marine keeping got me thinking about pursuing a degree in marine biology and have even enrolled myself in a scuba diving class. And that passion is even miniscule to those who spend a lifetime developing/maintaning this hobby.

Tl;dr: how hard is it to study via online if you are dedicated enough. Not gaining more knowledge implies how little you think of these "fish"

This is just my opinion.
 
So what you're all saying is that I should make a 10 gallon snowflake eel tank with boatloads of SPS and zero light?

I kid.

But reading this thread makes me feel better about the countless... Days? That I've been spending researching for my upcoming 10 gallon mushroom and clown tank. Lol.
 
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