Hey newbie !!! Stop and read this !!!

[CuzzA]

Sorry I should have emphasized "almost" more. The majority of freshwater fish are captive bred. For example go to live aquaria and you will find they state those similar words. This is usually the case for most LFS's as well.

And yes I am aware of species only existing in the hobby and no longer in the wild.

 

[hogfanreefer]

Agree with all of your points if not your methods, please don't take offense.

Don't take the lack of negative input by newbies as tacit aggrement. It would take a lot to stick your neck out as a newbie with the initial tone and early response to the thread.

Hope it works. I'm sure it will for at least some.

 

[mmittlesteadt]

I have a suggestion. I really feel the original first post needs to be a sticky, but perhaps you could look it over and edit just a tad bit to tone down a little bit of the negativity that might turn off a newbie. Nothing too drastic because I think ALL of your points are valid.

Then title it something like..."New to Saltwater Reefs? STOP...READ THIS FIRST!"

While I personally don't feel you need to change a thing, some here do, and really you bring up some very good, strong points that NEED to be made. I'd like to see it as a sticky for newcomers to this compulsive, obsessive "hobby" that warrants a good look in the mirror first.

 

[deleau]

I really liked the content and tone of the OP. It conveys the seriousness that many of us develop regarding keeping marine tanks. I do not think it will scare away newbies as much as some fear. I think most new people who end up here have already some taste or hook (pun intended) into the "hobby" and have searched out RC out of some latent desire to increase their knowledge. I would guess almost no new poster got to RC by hitting the "I feel lucky" button on Google.

I know one LFS close to me participates on RC. They are knowledgeable; they are enthusiasts. There is another LFS close to me that does not. They have been in business for about 20 years and know a lot, but they also know what they don't know. I've bought from LA, BRS, MarineDepot, but I always try to buy local first; I'm very interested in supporting the LFS model. I feel they are the gateways to bring in new people. I buy from both of those LFS as much as I can to support them both.

I've taken to building a relationship with the later LFS. My goal is to help them learn. I try to teach them about new technology. I talk to them about discussion topics here, and I try to relay guidance and information from experts here to them.

And sometimes, some LFS need the same "tough love" as doled out by the OP. Ultimately, we are the consumers, and if enough of us take a LFS to task over bad practices, they will change or risk going out of business. I own a business; if my customers started complaining about something, I'd quickly begin to listen...I don't want to fail. I suspect most of them fell the same way.

Sorry to derail the topic a bit, but I think it goes hand in hand. A lot of us are passionate about our marine tanks; it's past, present and future. What seems like an influx of newbies harming themselves and their livestock, need the weight of the rest of us upon them. Likewise, we use that same weight to help the LFS scene improve too. It'd be nice for less newbies to show up here in dire straights because the LKS community has begun to give better advise.

 

[chefbill]

First of all, I agree 100%, tone and all. I hate the softening of repercussions in this world lately.

A few months back, I dared to say something about a post asking "What's this brown dusty algae all over?". This when 3 of the previous 5 or 6 post was the exact same qusetion. A mod came on and 'took me to task' for suggesting a few minutes of research was worth more than an easy answer. Mod also stated 'maybe they didnt know the keywords for Google search'. I replied "brown dust reef tank" on google answered their question immediately. Guess what? All the posts from me, as well as any that agreed with me, were deleted.

I guess when I said someone who could not use google had very little chance of succeeding in the hobby, somehow that was too offencive.

Too much hand holding and not enough hand smacking in this world nowadays.

 

[coffee_snob]

I agree 100%

When I started this hobby 25 years ago I was at the mercy of two guys at my LFS.

With the Internet now, there is absolutely no reason not to have success...if we read, read, read.

 

[CuzzA]

Thanks guys for your opinions and approval or disapproval.

My motivation wasn't having this thread become a sticky. My motivation was some of the utter disregard of life and the unwillingness of some people to learn, whether it be on their own or by taking sound advice.

I'm not the one to ask about stickies, but I do think we could use a few more of them. But in a single post well written article format. In fact, a contest would be fun with an up or down vote for approval and publishing. It would be nice to see more threads like, "I read xyz sticky, but have a question about this." Rather than, "Help please." Meanwhile the answer is one thread above the question. Information is valuable and that is why RC is number one in fish forums. Their servers are loaded with data.

But again, that is a question for the mods and admins. I'm just a member.

 

[aquanooby]

Ive been in the reef side of the hobby a couple years now.
I did some researchand asked many questions at the lfs I would mention things i read here and would get the old those guys make things to hard etc..why would i not take the advice of this lfs they have beautiful tanks? I was sadly mistaken. Im a person who learns more hands on i can read all day but i don't fully grasp somthing until i am shown. My last lfs did not give me any real knowledge or time just kept taking my money. I made a move to a new city the first thing i did was look for a new lfs. I found an amazing place. I knew it was different when the owner told me im not going to sell you anything until we do a full water test. He said when you move your tank i want you to weigh the rock you have and bring me water to test we will go from there. I hope people really support there lfs if its truly a good one because there are people like me who need them.

 

[SpSChief85]

Great post +1 for sticky, I think research is the number 1 most important thing covered in doing so you will learn pretty much everything else covered, things in this hobby can be done cheap by alot of DIY, I've lost animals due to disease or being freshly caught and won't eat due to stress it's like losing an unborn child... as my son called my 7 year old sailing tang who recently passed racer... R.I.P racer.

 

[1MP3R1AL]

Too much hand holding and not enough hand smacking in this world nowadays.

100% agree with this, and the OP.

It literally sickens me every time I see a post from a member asking for help with the animal they are neglecting without doing any prior research on keeping alive. I hope when I say this that it might resonate with other members and or website admins: I honestly can't visit the "New to the hobby" section anymore. It literally sickens me. I usually glance at the main screen without entering unless I see a worthwhile successful post, but usually it has a question about keeping an animal that they have already purchased alive.

I believe reefing has definitely taken a turn for the worse within the last 6 years or so. Do I blame the LFS as a source? Not as much as I blame websites that blindly sell live animals to anyone who can operate a computer. In my mind it's truly amazing how one can be sent to jail for animal cruelty for neglecting a cat or dog, but come on this site for killing off hundreds of dollars of frags and be told in black and white that it's O.K. I am not saying lets just start punishing people for killing frags, but if we want our hobby, pastime, whatever it is to you to continue we really need to step up and do something about it now before its gone forever.

Think about this. If the person that bought that $5 frag had a better understanding on not only keeping it alive, but having it flourish into a huge colony and fragged that colony 20 times wouldn't that help sustain our beloved pastime for years to come for future generations? Well guess what, 20 newbies that didn't take the time to keep it alive and just killed it.

Admins, Mods, etc: I think we should start a thread from members who have some kind of experience in reefing. Each member should give accurate information of how to start and keep a tank. Maybe 1-30 steps. Then have a normal read speed, and calculate how long it takes for a normal person to read. Lets say it takes 30 minutes. Before a new member can join, on the new member join page, display all of the helpful information gathered from said thread, and have the join section not show for at least 30 minutes. I think this will significantly state that this hobby/pastime is serious, and to not be taken for granted.

 

[mmn]

...Before a new member can join, on the new member join page, display all of the helpful information gathered from said thread, and have the join section not show for at least 30 minutes. I think this will significantly state that this hobby/pastime is serious, and to not be taken for granted.

I'd not restrict joining, but I would restrict posting. Probably for something like 1 - 3 months. I think new people who are serious about learning would take that time to read. Those who don't probably are going to be hand fed one way or the other or just give up.

Regards
Michael

 

[1MP3R1AL]

Better yet: Compile all of the best starter threads into one category designed for beginners. Once joined the newbie cannot access other threads except the beginner forums only to read, not post for a month or so. Before joining have some kind of awareness or mission statement.

 

[Pokahpolice]

I'd not restrict joining, but I would restrict posting. Probably for something like 1 - 3 months. I think new people who are serious about learning would take that time to read. Those who don't probably are going to be hand fed one way or the other or just give up.

Regards
Michael

This mentality is why I've been in the hobby for 10+ years but have less than 100 posts on RC. I'm even a bit of a forum junky but I feel that some of the RC crowd are (since we're being brutally honest in this thread) pretentious.

Being new and asking basic questions is not a crime and absolutely shouldn't be restricted. Sharing knowledge is the premise of what a forum should be. If you feel that knowledge is too basic to share, then simply scroll past the thread. When you have 101 questions, scanning through 10,000 threads isn't always feasible. You also find old info, conflicting info, different strategies/approaches, ext, ext. Asking questions is part of the learning process.

Are there people that don't do any of the research they should? Yep! Is that the majority? I don't think so. Some of you stated that this country has gotten too "pussyfooted" (for lack of a better term). This country has also adopted a policy of punishing the masses for the actions of few.

 

[aquanooby]

I am a noob still once i quickly realized i wasnt having success i went to a holding pattern 1 fish, rock and water. The person who starts with limited funds will quickly learn the right way or quit the hobby because as soon as i saw i was throwing money away i decided to learn before going any further.

 

[dalfed]

I am a newbie myself, and though I did research for more then a year before starting I have still made mistakes! Thought the idea of a forum was to share knowledge. I do search for any questions I have but some can't or don't, but do not forget the ones coming to this site care enough to ask! and to get **** on by some elitist or not being able to ask a question will do more harm then good.
As far as the original post I agree with all of it in a perfect world, but all of us have seen that person walking out of the lfs with a new tank and fish. I know it can get frustrating to read the same questions every day (was on a freshwater site for 6 years and copied the link to cycling a tank, what felt like a 1000 times) but pass by the question if you are not willing to patiently help, and remember most of the people asking are in a panic in their minds.

 

[1MP3R1AL]

Some of you stated that this country has gotten too "pussyfooted" (for lack of a better term). This country has also adopted a policy of punishing the masses for the actions of few.

I wouldn't say any of this is "punishing" the masses, but more of raising or forcing awareness to those that do not have the proper knowledge.

In your opinion, when is a good time to start forcing awareness (punishing masses), when most of the people are making mistakes when its too late, or in the beginning?

 

[CStrickland]

I've noticed in myself a kind of speed bump in the learning curve with my tank. It's sort of hard to explain but the trend seems to be: we all start somewhere ... find our way to the forums ... soak up a ton of info really fast ... start advising people who are not there yet ... forget that it was only a few months ago that we were in the same boat ... resent the newbs for not getting it right away.

I think the tang police (proud member myself) is a good example, I hope it doesn't open a can of worms. Tanks sizes are an easy number to latch onto, you don't really need experience to visit liveaquaria. So it feels good to lecture noobs when they ignore them because the hobby is so complicated about everything else, it is a comfort for the slightly-less-noob to have something to get all superior about. But that superiority is greatly tempered in more experienced reefers, they see the grey area more. I was a real punk about that stuff for a while, but I found I get more flies with honey and checking my ego.

I know you can't tell how much experience someone has by their join date, but it does seem like a lot of the posts in here are from folks who have only been around a few years. Idk if I'll ever stop being a newb, maybe 5 years? I guess it depends on how much I read and listen. When it stops being fun to try to give advice and share the little bit I've learned because people don't follow (not that they really should as I'm only 6 months in, but I try to link to articles and stuff more than just "cause I said so") I just go read Advanced Aquarist for a while until I cool off, or clean my glass.

I don't think the rant was unhelpful, some people need to hear things that way. I do think that it might discourage other folks who don't respond to that style. Stickying it in everyone's face would take away the opportunity to figure out the audience beforehand. If that were the first thing I read, I might not have explored the hobby further and I think that would've been a shame.

 

[1MP3R1AL]

I can't speak for everyone, but my first salt water tank was in 2002. Joined RC in 2003, saw an abundance of wrong advice and left. Rejoined a year or so ago because not only did I forget my password, I couldn't even remember my screen name, ha. In that time I have moved 4 times, and have had 5 different tanks, each one better than the previous. My clowns are around 8 years old.

 

[chueu]

I agree with what you said..

But unfortunately, a large majority of the reef keeping people here do not. Money is more important than a lot of other factors and sea creatures are cheap. I've seen many creatures killed on whatsapp chats.

I'm a newb but I've not killed any fish or corals yet. It's impossible to not suceed if u pay attention and read reef central.

 

[Pokahpolice]

I wouldn't say any of this is "punishing" the masses, but more of raising or forcing awareness to those that do not have the proper knowledge.

In your opinion, when is a good time to start forcing awareness (punishing masses), when most of the people are making mistakes when its too late, or in the beginning?

Limiting access does nothing to raise awareness...actually probably does the complete opposite and will drive people away from the forum. Pretending that creating a special set of rules for new members does anything positive for the "greater good" of the hobby is ridiculous.