High Alkalinity - Is that the Secret to More Colorful SPS?

[sahin]

OP, I can see the point you're trying to make: You had better colours when your Phosphate and Alk was higher...and now that it is lower, your SPS colours have turned crap.

For years I was in the 0.01 - 0.03ppm PO4 camp...I am slowly but surely moving away from that school of thought. A buddy of mine runs a T5/LED setup and had amazing FULLY saturated colours...not pale. but DEEP STRONG colour. He then discovered his PO4 to be high and started messing around with bring GFO to bring the high PO4 (I recall it was somehere in the 0.2ppm range)down to "acceptable" levels; ie 0.03ppm and not only lost coral colours, but a few corals in the process.

I personally do not believe that 0.03ppm is better than 0.2ppm; I feel there is some other factor or unknown variable involved. I kow this goes against what many think and even what I have preached for years about PO4 and SPS...

Do you have photos of your corals and tank from before the current issues?

 

[JPMagyar]

While this is common thinking it's not fact. I run much higher phosphates than the OP and have no problem growing any acro.

For balance on the low phosphate school of thought you should read this thread.



I'd say it's safe to assume that since the OP has good growth salinity is fine. Acros are highly adaptable in this respect and there is no reason to suspect this parameter as limiting color.

As a matter of exact detail I agree with your statement, but I disagree with the overall gist what you are saying. I would love to see some scientific papers that back up your statements. Please show me research that says elevated phosphate is NOT harmful to most acropora. Not one acropora or two, but an entire reef.


While it is true many captive reefs run quite successfully at elevated levels of PO4 (including my friend Jason's at Greenwich Aquaria) and there is research showing elevated levels of phosphate can actually increase growth rates in at least one species of acropora, there is extensive research that shows that elevated phosphate levels are damaging to the health of reefs overall. That research may not show a direct link between coloration and phosphate, but it clearly demonstrates how all the commensurate side effects of elevated phosphate in the form of nuisance algae etc. clearly are detrimental to the well being of corals. In addition, there is ample anecdotal evidence amongst TOTM members to support a belief that coloration is closely and directly correlated with coloration, not for all corals but certainly for some of the more sensitive varieties that hail from areas of high water quality. I am tired of arguing with people on the internet who are trying to turn the rare instance into general statements. If you want to run high levels of phosphate in your reef more power to you, and while you're at it why not show us macros of all your beautiful acros.

As to the salt content, I never said it would directly impact coloration as I not aware of any research on the topic. However, in general, successful reefers strive to maintain parameters as close to NSW as possible. Please show me research that says keeping any ionic level different from that found in nature is somehow better. Until you can prove 32 ppt is better than 35 ppt I am not sure why you would recommend that as a goal.

Lastly, this is a hobby that is meant to be fun. One of the simplest methods there is to achieve success is to copy someone else that has already achieved "success". If the tank you want to copy has high phosphate and low salt content then by all means follow their example, but if what you want is a reef like mine or Lunar's or Iwagumi's then why not copy the parameters from those tanks? Is it the only way to succeed? No. Is it the best way to succeed? Maybe. Is it the easiest way to succeed? Yes, without a doubt.

 

[markalot]

I am in the camp that says phosphates aren't the important parameter, but they are one of them. I had a phosphate spike and a resulting KH spike from lack of growth. Unfortunately I don't know what phosphates were before KH started to rise and I browned most of my acros and lost some smaller frags. I know they were nearly undetectable a month before this happened but I do not know exactly how fast they climbed.

So in my experience it seems like higher phosphates severely retards growth. I was dosing 90ml two part a day along with a minor amount of Kalk and I had to turn off the dosers and drop the Kalk to stabilize the tank. I'm now shooting for 7.5KH and PO4 around .05 or so. After two months the colors are starting to return, finally.

I suppose I could have maintained KH at 10.5 after it climbed, left phosphates unchecked, and waited to see what happened, but I didn't.

My Nitrates are still elevated, around 10, and I'm not planning to change anything to deal with it.

 

[Piper27]

Also, my Alkalinity was super high back then because I did 2 water changes a week - one of which was a 70 percent water change - and my SPS had great color back them with high phosphate and high alkalinity.

Yes, I have 4 Bulbs (Not 6 like you recommend) but my tank is only 12 inches front to back. My LFS has 4 bulbs on one SPS tank and only 2 Bulbs on two other SPS tanks and their tanks are 18 inches front to back so they are getting less light than me and have much better colors.

I would guess your corals looked "good" for the time being because they were getting constant large waterchanges. Your lighting is not giving you any amount of high par I would think. 4 bulbs on a so so fixture will give you 200 on average or even the high end. Lower if its old and not clean. That on a old school 55 is not a good combo for growing sps, or at least will make it difficult.

Your LFS has the wrong kind of lighting to keep acros, they are doing this probably because they turnover their acros in a short period of time and there is no need for them to waste money lighting them for a few days. I imagine their corals look horrible after sitting for a month or longer. Maybe their corals have better colors than yours because they are getting maricultures that come in looking great from the natural light they were in previously. But not from the light they are under in the store.

I think if you research for a while about alk, light levels and nutrient levels you could learn a lot. There is no secret to colorful sps, just stability. Two tanks can be polar opposites and both have colorful sps.

Also I would like to see some pics from before and after your corals lost "good" color. Peoples views on what good coral colors are vary dramatically.

 

[tdb320reef]

Post by mistake.

As a matter of exact detail I agree with your statement, but I disagree with the overall gist what you are saying. I would love to see some scientific papers that back up your statements. Please show me research that says elevated phosphate is NOT harmful to most acropora. Not one acropora or two, but an entire reef.


While it is true many captive reefs run quite successfully at elevated levels of PO4 (including my friend Jason's at Greenwich Aquaria) and there is research showing elevated levels of phosphate can actually increase growth rates in at least one species of acropora, there is extensive research that shows that elevated phosphate levels are damaging to the health of reefs overall. That research may not show a direct link between coloration and phosphate, but it clearly demonstrates how all the commensurate side effects of elevated phosphate in the form of nuisance algae etc. clearly are detrimental to the well being of corals. In addition, there is ample anecdotal evidence amongst TOTM members to support a belief that coloration is closely and directly correlated with coloration, not for all corals but certainly for some of the more sensitive varieties that hail from areas of high water quality. I am tired of arguing with people on the internet who are trying to turn the rare instance into general statements. If you want to run high levels of phosphate in your reef more power to you, and while you're at it why not show us macros of all your beautiful acros.

As to the salt content, I never said it would directly impact coloration as I not aware of any research on the topic. However, in general, successful reefers strive to maintain parameters as close to NSW as possible. Please show me research that says keeping any ionic level different from that found in nature is somehow better. Until you can prove 32 ppt is better than 35 ppt I am not sure why you would recommend that as a goal.

Lastly, this is a hobby that is meant to be fun. One of the simplest methods there is to achieve success is to copy someone else that has already achieved "success". If the tank you want to copy has high phosphate and low salt content then by all means follow their example, but if what you want is a reef like mine or Lunar's or Iwagumi's then why not copy the parameters from those tanks? Is it the only way to succeed? No. Is it the best way to succeed? Maybe. Is it the easiest way to succeed? Yes, without a doubt.

 

[that Fish Guy]

I would guess your corals looked "good" for the time being because they were getting constant large waterchanges. Your lighting is not giving you any amount of high par I would think. 4 bulbs on a so so fixture will give you 200 on average or even the high end. Lower if its old and not clean. That on a old school 55 is not a good combo for growing sps, or at least will make it difficult.

Your LFS has the wrong kind of lighting to keep acros, they are doing this probably because they turnover their acros in a short period of time and there is no need for them to waste money lighting them for a few days. I imagine their corals look horrible after sitting for a month or longer. Maybe their corals have better colors than yours because they are getting maricultures that come in looking great from the natural light they were in previously. But not from the light they are under in the store.

I think if you research for a while about alk, light levels and nutrient levels you could learn a lot. There is no secret to colorful sps, just stability. Two tanks can be polar opposites and both have colorful sps.

Also I would like to see some pics from before and after your corals lost "good" color. Peoples views on what good coral colors are vary dramatically.

You say that I do not have enough light.

How do you know that without a PAR Meter?

I have more light than my LFS.

Some of their Corals sell Quick and some sit around for many Months and do Not loose color.

The ones I trade in to them Color Up Nicely in about a week and Keep their color long term in the store.

Sometimes they sell right away and sometimes they sit around for a while.

This proves your point on light Wrong.

I am not talking necessarily about Corals they get elsewhere but more why do the ones I trade in color up quickly and hold their color.

Unlike what you assume it is not because They have more light than me or that they flip their corals too quickly.

 

[Piper27]

You say that I do not have enough light.

--- No I said your not getting HIGH par, and that your tank and lights will make it difficult to do well with sps. Unless you keep only a few pieces right at the surface, but that's not as fun

How do you know that without a PAR Meter?

---- Because I have tested a lot of t5 fixtures with a par meter and they all average out around the same. Except for the very nice expensive ones that are well made.

I have more light than my LFS.

--- how do YOU know that without a par meter? Comparing your reef tank to a LFS holding tank are apples and oranges.

Some of their Corals sell Quick and some sit around for many Months and do Not loose color.

--- I wonder if I put one of thoes corals that sat around for many months into my tank would it do much better, color and growth wise? I would think so.

The ones I trade in to them Color Up Nicely in about a week and Keep their color long term in the store. Sometimes they sell right away and sometimes they sit around for a while. This proves your point on light Wrong.

--- My point was they don't have the right light to KEEP acros long term. As in growing them into colorful colonies. The 4 bulb fixture may work, especially if their tanks are low nutrients. If they are they can get away with a smaller amount of light to keep their sps. Also if its a small footprint tank this could work.
The 2 bulb t5 setup for sps they have I would love to see keep and grow colonies. If it could we would all have 2 bulbs on our tanks. Like I said your view on good coral color could be opposite of my view on coral color.

I am not talking necessarily about Corals they get elsewhere but more why do the ones I trade in color up quickly and hold their color.

--- their water quality could be much better, but anything would be just a guess at this point.

Unlike what you assume it is not because They have more light than me or that they flip their corals too quickly.

--- I think your missing the point. Your focusing on the LFS as a staple of success as to how you are going to run your tank. I would focus on successful reefers to get your info and experience from, it got me much farther than anyone in a fish store has helped me get.

Again there are many ways to have a successful reef, but no secret to special colors. The success keeping a reef is written through people's experiences and studies not your lfs's techniques in keeping livestock for sale.

I am going to back away because I am farther into this topic than I want to be.

 

[dtum]

Can we get a photo of a coral in your tank and one at the LFS?

 

[markalot]

You say that I do not have enough light.

How do you know that without a PAR Meter?

I have more light than my LFS.

Have you tested PAR in their tank? Like you said, it's hard to tell without a PAR meter. They might have less "white" light that you making it appear darker.

Just trying to help here. My best colors come from heavy feeding and frantic export. Frantic as in water changes, heavier skimming, GFO.

 

[that Fish Guy]

Have you tested PAR in their tank? Like you said, it's hard to tell without a PAR meter. They might have less "white" light that you making it appear darker.

Just trying to help here. My best colors come from heavy feeding and frantic export. Frantic as in water changes, heavier skimming, GFO.

I do not have a PAR Meter so I cannot test the PAR.

But they have the Corals about 20 Inches from the Coral.

My Lights are about 6 Inches from the Coral.

So Mine are getting more light.

We use the same Bulbs X2 Blue Plus and X2 Coral Plus so it is not the Color that makes them look different.

 

[Dapg8gt]

Again there are many ways to have a successful reef, but no secret to special colors. The success keeping a reef is written through people's experiences and studies not your lfs's techniques in keeping livestock for sale.

I am going to back away because I am farther into this topic than I want to be.

Agree with this fully, looking at a single point as the end all be all source for what's right is a big mistake. Especially when you are trying to mimic a business approach in a standard 55g. This thread reminds me of the one where you were trying to convince everyone that all actinic/blue bulbs was the new fad and it had to be right because wwc does it.

Best advice I can give you is do what your tank likes, you said that you had better colors at higher p04. Why not just run at the elevated p04 level? Basically what Im trying to get at is things work in some tanks and not others, thinking one sole method or magical number is the golden rule will have you lost before you even get off the starting line or be the one leading the race and fall on your face right before it =) .

 

[conix67]

That is what everyone says but the strange thing is that my SPS had nice color when my Phosphate was almost 3 Times what it currently is (1.17).

Also, when it was 1.17 I started to use GFO because everyone said so.

Well I got the Phosphate Low and the SPS looked like Crap.

So even though everyone says the exact opposite my SPS looked better when I had really high phosphate and alkalinity.

Why is that?

It goes against everything everyone has ever told me about SPS.

How's your SPS now?

How do you test for your phosphate level? 0.3ppm is not low, that's still 10x higher than recommended level.

 

[fishresponse]

I've also had an issue with losing coloration recently. Good discussion here. A while ago I had good color. Now it all has changed. I've been reading that other people like to leave a little phosphate and nitrate in the water. That's not new to anything that's been said here already. I'm planning on sticking to a consistent schedule and seeing how stability plays out. It's a great time of year to leave the windows open so the pH can be a little higher as well with ensuring all the outside factors like source water and salt are good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[eg8r210]

I just tested my Aquarium since some people were asking for the Parameters.

Temperature - 78
Salinity - 1.025
PH - 8.1
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0
Alkalinity - 7.9
Calcium - 445
Magnesium - 1455
Phosphate - 0.32

The Aquarium is a Standard 55 Gallon.

Lighting - My Main Lights are a 4 Bulb T5-HO Fixture with ATI Bulbs (2 Blue Plus and 2 Coral Plus) I change the Bulbs every 6 Months.

Flow - Two Hydor Koralia 1500's

I do a weekly 15 Percent Water Change with Reef Crystals and RO Water.

I Dose AcroPower twice a week.

I have been dosing Reef Roids and Reef Chili for 6 Weeks Now too (Twice a Week).

You might want to try and get your po4 down a bit lower like .03 and leave nitrates low (and no algae in the tank to consume nutrients giving false reading). At this point I think your corals will uptake the acropower, reef roads and reef chili a lot more efficiently. My best guess is that with higher nutrients, your corals are consuming those first and then anything else you are adding to the tank.

 

[eg8r210]

I do not have a PAR Meter so I cannot test the PAR.

But they have the Corals about 20 Inches from the Coral.

My Lights are about 6 Inches from the Coral.

So Mine are getting more light.

We use the same Bulbs X2 Blue Plus and X2 Coral Plus so it is not the Color that makes them look different.

I am baffled by the six inches. Is your light literally sitting on the water and your rock work almost to the water line?

 

[dz6t]

I think your LFS may have better t5 fixture than you do.
Not all t5 are created equally, especially the ballasts and reflectors.
T5 output is GREATLY affected by ballasts and reflectors. Since you said you have a Marinland fixture, I guess, sorry to say, you have the bottom of the barrel crappy light fixture. LOL, it is a hobby, no offensive please.

 

[dz6t]

Since I am a SPS nuts and I do have one of the largest SPS collection in Boston area, I can assure you, the OP, that you are onto something here. Alk level can affect SPS color, actually not as directly as you may think. It is something to do with the expression of color proteins in coral and their ability to bind to certain elements in order to light up.
I am a scientist and I study these sort of things.

 

[dz6t]

One more thing, the organic contents and bacterial contents in the water can affect coral color greatly. But these parameters are not testable for hobbyists but can be done in labs.
LFS tanks are loaded with all sorts of bacteria due to large amount of coral come and go.
On the other hand, their tanks are loaded with all sort of pests and diseases too.

 

[Piper27]

This thread is pretty old by the way, just in case anyone was waiting for a response from the op. I am not sure if he even frequents the sps forum anymore.