High KH and Alkalinity

[TRG100]

Hello All!

I've had high KH and Alkalinity for 3 weeks. I could use some help.
30 Gallon Tank usually 3 Gallon water changes but this past water change was an 8 Gallon.

SG - 1.025
Cal "“ 360
Mag "“ 1170
Amm - <0.25
Nitrites "“ 0
Nitrates "“ 10
pH "“ 8
KH (dKH) -13.4
Alk "“ 4.79

I dosed last night with 1.5 tsp pH Buffer and 7.5 ml Mag.

Todays results

SG - 1.025
Cal "“ 360
Mag "“ 1290
Amm - <0.25
Nitrites "“ 0
Nitrates "“ 10
pH "“ 8.15
KH (dKH) -15.7
Alk "“ 5.59

Am I doing something wrong? Missing something?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Tom

 

[Waddleboy]

something you should know is that alk and KH are the same thing. they bought represent carbonate ions in solution. as far as putting in pH buffer that is going to raise your alk because alk is what a pH buffer is. Your calcium is also low. The easiest way to explain this is that Ca, Mg, and Carbonate all work together an a system of balance. If one is off the others may be off too. Mg works to help keep other salts in solution. You also look like you are still cycling. When you are cycling pH and other factors that deal with pH can be slightly off and change once you get over your cycle. Sorry that was kind of a ramble but the point is there. Also when you said you dosed Mag you mean magnesium correct?

 

[TRG100]

Yes, magnesium.

Thanks for the explanation.

So just hold tight? Finish the cycle?

 

[TRG100]

something you should know is that alk and KH are the same thing. they bought represent carbonate ions in solution. as far as putting in pH buffer that is going to raise your alk because alk is what a pH buffer is. Your calcium is also low. The easiest way to explain this is that Ca, Mg, and Carbonate all work together an a system of balance. If one is off the others may be off too. Mg works to help keep other salts in solution. You also look like you are still cycling. When you are cycling pH and other factors that deal with pH can be slightly off and change once you get over your cycle. Sorry that was kind of a ramble but the point is there. Also when you said you dosed Mag you mean magnesium correct?

Waddleboy I'm still not getting how I know I'm in a cycle and when it's over?

 

[disc1]

Yes, magnesium.

Thanks for the explanation.

So just hold tight? Finish the cycle?

Yes and don't add any more buffer.

 

[Waddleboy]

Waddleboy I'm still not getting how I know I'm in a cycle and when it's over?

+1 to what disc1 said. stay away form the buffer. As for the cycle ill give you a quick run through the stickies are great for this. Might be worth reading during your cycling time so when you are ready to add fish you will have a good understand.

When you start a tank theoretically it has no bacteria in it. Its just plain old water. In order for the tank to be "alive" bacteria and things need to grow and make your tank an ecosystem. Bacteria comes form lots of things people use live rock, a scoop of sand from an established system, or whatever means to take bacteria and add it to your tank to jump start the cycle. Time itself will take care of adding bacteria. So after you get bacteria you have some natural decay of dead things. These dead things release ammonia (NH3). The bacteria then eat ammonia and convert it to Nitrite (NO3) then Nitrate (NO4). Nitrate are usually removed by plants thus why people use a refugium to grow macroalgae, mangroves, ect.

Now that you understand that, the process takes time to build up a bacteria load. They need to grow and reproduce to make enough to handle the bioload of your system. So the first thing you see is an ammonia spike as you have things dying releasing ammonia (some people use a raw shrimp to add ammonia to the tank). When the ammonia goes down, it means you have bacteria converting it to nitrite. Your nitrite should go up and then your nitrate should go up. As nitrate and nitrite rise, you will have ammonia start to fall. When your tests read 0 for ammonia and nitrite and low <10 to 0 for nitrate your cycle is usually over. The bacteria in the system is able to handle the bioload of the system. Thats the whole thing of a cycle.

Now the sad part, ammonia and nitrite are poisonous to fish and coral so until this goes down you cannot add anything. Nitrate at high levels are dangerous. So until your cycle is over you have a tank full of water and rock and sand, patience is key to wait it out. When you add livestock finally you cannot dump a whole lot at once because they affect the bioload and theoretically cause a mini cycle because more ammonia is present (from fish poop and pee, etc). However, by adding a small load at a time the tank is able to grow more bacteria and keep up with the new bioload and never show ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate spike.
Sorry for the lengthy post i hope that all makes sense. let me know if you have any questions

 

[Sport507]

Yes and don't add any more buffer.

+1 No need to dose anything while cycling and don't chase your PH, it can cause more harm than good.

 

[Palting]

Hard to not fiddle with the tank when it's cycling, isn't it?

As the others said, leave it alone. Dosing with buffer raised the alk/dKH even further. It should come down with time.

Just curious as to what brand salt you are using. At an SG of 1.025, your cal and mag numbers are a little on the low side for reef. It's fine for FOWLR, but if you are planning a reef down the line, you may want to get a salt with higher numbers.

 

[TRG100]

Hard to not fiddle with the tank when it's cycling, isn't it?

As the others said, leave it alone. Dosing with buffer raised the alk/dKH even further. It should come down with time.

Just curious as to what brand salt you are using. At an SG of 1.025, your cal and mag numbers are a little on the low side for reef. It's fine for FOWLR, but if you are planning a reef down the line, you may want to get a salt with higher numbers.

FOWLER? Help please.

It is a reef tank.

Red Sea Coral Pro Salt.

Suggestions?

 

[TRG100]

+1 to what disc1 said. stay away form the buffer. As for the cycle ill give you a quick run through the stickies are great for this. Might be worth reading during your cycling time so when you are ready to add fish you will have a good understand.

When you start a tank theoretically it has no bacteria in it. Its just plain old water. In order for the tank to be "alive" bacteria and things need to grow and make your tank an ecosystem. Bacteria comes form lots of things people use live rock, a scoop of sand from an established system, or whatever means to take bacteria and add it to your tank to jump start the cycle. Time itself will take care of adding bacteria. So after you get bacteria you have some natural decay of dead things. These dead things release ammonia (NH3). The bacteria then eat ammonia and convert it to Nitrite (NO3) then Nitrate (NO4). Nitrate are usually removed by plants thus why people use a refugium to grow macroalgae, mangroves, ect.

Now that you understand that, the process takes time to build up a bacteria load. They need to grow and reproduce to make enough to handle the bioload of your system. So the first thing you see is an ammonia spike as you have things dying releasing ammonia (some people use a raw shrimp to add ammonia to the tank). When the ammonia goes down, it means you have bacteria converting it to nitrite. Your nitrite should go up and then your nitrate should go up. As nitrate and nitrite rise, you will have ammonia start to fall. When your tests read 0 for ammonia and nitrite and low <10 to 0 for nitrate your cycle is usually over. The bacteria in the system is able to handle the bioload of the system. Thats the whole thing of a cycle.

Now the sad part, ammonia and nitrite are poisonous to fish and coral so until this goes down you cannot add anything. Nitrate at high levels are dangerous. So until your cycle is over you have a tank full of water and rock and sand, patience is key to wait it out. When you add livestock finally you cannot dump a whole lot at once because they affect the bioload and theoretically cause a mini cycle because more ammonia is present (from fish poop and pee, etc). However, by adding a small load at a time the tank is able to grow more bacteria and keep up with the new bioload and never show ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate spike.
Sorry for the lengthy post i hope that all makes sense. let me know if you have any questions

Great start to my questions. But my Reef tanks is 4 months old with Fish And Corals. I found this site a bit too late. I will have more questions when I get to read the thread in more detail.

Appreciate the help greatly!

 

[Waddleboy]

so you have a fish and coral with an alk that high and everything is okay? i would consider doing a large water change if possible. also anything happen recently to cause the ammonia to show?

 

[TRG100]

so you have a fish and coral with an alk that high and everything is okay? i would consider doing a large water change if possible. also anything happen recently to cause the ammonia to show?

According to the salifert test kit that is the lowest reading for ammonia.

Large for a 30 gallonl is what percent?

 

[Waddleboy]

According to the salifert test kit that is the lowest reading for ammonia.

Large for a 30 gallonl is what percent?

as much as you can do

 

[Palting]

FOWLER? Help please.

It is a reef tank.

Red Sea Coral Pro Salt.

Suggestions?

FOWLER = Fish Only With Live Rock

Okey. Red Sea coral Pro at 1.026 SG comes in with an alk of 7, cal 490, and mag 1300: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1714505 . The ideal alk range is 7-11 dkh, and the ideal mag is 1250-1350: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

Great start to my questions. But my Reef tanks is 4 months old with Fish And Corals. I found this site a bit too late. I will have more questions when I get to read the thread in more detail.

Appreciate the help greatly!

According to the salifert test kit that is the lowest reading for ammonia.

Large for a 30 gallonl is what percent?

If that's the lowest reading, then I assume that your true ammonia is zero. Nitrate of 10 is not bad for a 4 month old reef tank, but it could be better. The true problem is the alk of 4+ and the dKH of 13+. But, still not too bad, either, IMO. Nothing to go crazy about. I would do a series of 10%-20% water changes weekly with your Red Sea Pro salt. That will slowly dilute your alk down to acceptable range. You want to avoid sudden changes, particularly a see-saw one, otherwise you will shock your system.

I suggest you read though all those links I gave you to get handle on reef parameters and their maintenance. Heck, read though all the articles here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/subject/chemistry.php . To be honest, I haven't been able to digest ALL the articles in that chapter, but maybe you can .

Once you get done with at least the first set of links, I suggest you try to keep your parameters at mid range. Keep the alk at 8-9 dKH for example, rather than close to the limits, like a dKH of 7. That way, you have room for testing error. If you want to keep using the Red Sea Pro, it means you'll eventually have to supplement the alk once it gets down, to keep it from going down. Just don't supplememt as much as you have done .

 

[TRG100]

FOWLER = Fish Only With Live Rock

Okey. Red Sea coral Pro at 1.026 SG comes in with an alk of 7, cal 490, and mag 1300: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1714505 . The ideal alk range is 7-11 dkh, and the ideal mag is 1250-1350: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php





If that's the lowest reading, then I assume that your true ammonia is zero. Nitrate of 10 is not bad for a 4 month old reef tank, but it could be better. The true problem is the alk of 4+ and the dKH of 13+. But, still not too bad, either, IMO. Nothing to go crazy about. I would do a series of 10%-20% water changes weekly with your Red Sea Pro salt. That will slowly dilute your alk down to acceptable range. You want to avoid sudden changes, particularly a see-saw one, otherwise you will shock your system.

I suggest you read though all those links I gave you to get handle on reef parameters and their maintenance. Heck, read though all the articles here: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/subject/chemistry.php . To be honest, I haven't been able to digest ALL the articles in that chapter, but maybe you can .

Once you get done with at least the first set of links, I suggest you try to keep your parameters at mid range. Keep the alk at 8-9 dKH for example, rather than close to the limits, like a dKH of 7. That way, you have room for testing error. If you want to keep using the Red Sea Pro, it means you'll eventually have to supplement the alk once it gets down, to keep it from going down. Just don't supplememt as much as you have done .

Awesome! Thanks!