bigworm175
New member
I had a cyano outbreak and started running carbon. My hippo got HLLE shortly thereafter. I've had him for a year without any health issues. What is the current thinking on activated carbon and HLLE?
HLLE and carbon
- Thread starter bigworm175
- Start date
davelin315
10 & Over Club
There is anecdotal information out there that HLLE is caused by carbon dust in the water. I had to aggressively filter my system with carbon at one point in time because of the addition of possible toxins into the water and because I turned up the flow through the fluidized bed, it shredded some of the carbon releasing a ton of carbon dust into the tank. My yellow tangs immediately started showing signs of HLLE and they still exhibit this today, over a year since this happened. My feeling is that this is in fact a cause, or at least causative.
Guys, I have never heard or read such as this....Have been using carbon for over 25 years - NEVER have had a case of HLLE. And I have always kept a lot of tangs.
So - maybe you want to look at:
1. any possible stray current in the tank. Use a volt ohm meter on a vary low range to check this. Just because you may have a ground probe - does not mean your house has a good ground!
2. Nutrition......Selcon, garlic and vitamins B and C.
3. Possible pathogen? I have read that there are suspected bacteria and Hexamitia like bugs that can cause the symptomes that many want to lump into "HLLE"
When we see lateral line erosion, or "hole in the head" - we often overlook the more likely culprits.
If you have any credible evidence of carbon being the bad guy - by all means - share it.
T
So - maybe you want to look at:
1. any possible stray current in the tank. Use a volt ohm meter on a vary low range to check this. Just because you may have a ground probe - does not mean your house has a good ground!
2. Nutrition......Selcon, garlic and vitamins B and C.
3. Possible pathogen? I have read that there are suspected bacteria and Hexamitia like bugs that can cause the symptomes that many want to lump into "HLLE"
When we see lateral line erosion, or "hole in the head" - we often overlook the more likely culprits.
If you have any credible evidence of carbon being the bad guy - by all means - share it.
T
bigworm175
New member
I've been soaking food with vit. C and garlic as I've read that can help. There was a guy in the forums who was researching HLLE and I can't find his website. If I remember correctly he was finding that activated carbon dust was actually the main cause. Whether the carbon dust was directly causing this or indirectly I don't know. It makes sense that it is something that would not occur in the ocean if what the guy wrote is true - that HLLE doesn't occur in the wild. (true?)
Reefkeeping has an older article about HLLE and carbon was mentioned as a possible cause but it was written some time ago. I was just wondering if any more findings have come around.
Reefkeeping has an older article about HLLE and carbon was mentioned as a possible cause but it was written some time ago. I was just wondering if any more findings have come around.
Reefobsession
New member
After about 2 months of dosing vodka, my Kole tang got it bad. I immediatly stopped soing and 2 days later, it was completly cleared up. It just sucks because I have seen so many successful vodka run tanks, such as sunny's. It casued my skimmer to go nuts and not create any skimmate and caused HLLE.
Hello,
I am not sure that HLLE come from the carbon, there is a very complete article on reefkeeping i think, but be sure that HLLE is coming foods, stress or stray voltage. I think also that carbon dust in anectodic.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/index.php
But HLLE is probably not concerning the hippocamp as i am not sure that hippo as a lateral line? , i guess it's more something like a worm !
Show us some pictures we will tell you!
I am not sure that HLLE come from the carbon, there is a very complete article on reefkeeping i think, but be sure that HLLE is coming foods, stress or stray voltage. I think also that carbon dust in anectodic.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/index.php
But HLLE is probably not concerning the hippocamp as i am not sure that hippo as a lateral line? , i guess it's more something like a worm !
Show us some pictures we will tell you!
I think I see a connection in the issue with carbon here:
"Carbon" ( big "C" - the black filtering material - granular in nature) and "carbon" ( the chemical found in sugar, vodka, and a host of other sources) are not exactly the same in this application.
So, if I understand correctly - the concern over "carbon" causing - or contributing to HLLE is the carbon used as a dosing material - not Carbon used as a filter media....correct?
Thanks for your input!
T
"Carbon" ( big "C" - the black filtering material - granular in nature) and "carbon" ( the chemical found in sugar, vodka, and a host of other sources) are not exactly the same in this application.
So, if I understand correctly - the concern over "carbon" causing - or contributing to HLLE is the carbon used as a dosing material - not Carbon used as a filter media....correct?
Thanks for your input!
T
Really? Which trace element? I think it is easy to blame things we do not understand fully as the culprit here......
Again - in over 25 years, I have NEVER had a case of HLLE in my tanks.
AND - I use carbon - all the time.
How do you explain this? I am not trying to be arguementative...I am trying to learn if there is something to this fear of carbon that is new - or if it is the same old arguement I have always heard.
(It is kind of the same one you hear "It must have been the salt - I switched brands...and VIOLA! the problem appeared")
But without empirical evidence - how can we really choose to believe such?
In an effort to prove or dis-prove this: can you cite case histories, studies, or articles which ACTUALLY deal in numbers, and facts rather than ....fear and suspicion.
Again - we are all in this hobby to continue learning - and if there is some new - real knowledge - PLEASE share it.
T
Again - in over 25 years, I have NEVER had a case of HLLE in my tanks.
AND - I use carbon - all the time.
How do you explain this? I am not trying to be arguementative...I am trying to learn if there is something to this fear of carbon that is new - or if it is the same old arguement I have always heard.
(It is kind of the same one you hear "It must have been the salt - I switched brands...and VIOLA! the problem appeared")
But without empirical evidence - how can we really choose to believe such?
In an effort to prove or dis-prove this: can you cite case histories, studies, or articles which ACTUALLY deal in numbers, and facts rather than ....fear and suspicion.
Again - we are all in this hobby to continue learning - and if there is some new - real knowledge - PLEASE share it.
T
HighlandReefer
Team RC
Antimicrobial Polypeptides, Piscidins and Histone-Like Proteins, in Important Aquacultured Fish and the Effect of Nutrition on their Expression and Susceptibility to Infection in Hybrid Striped (Sunshine) Bass (Morone saxatilis ♂ x M. chrysops ♀)
http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/theses/available/etd-05052008-171103/
Investigating molecular recognition and biological function at interfaces
using piscidins, antimicrobial peptides from fish
http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/library/publications/NHMFL_Publication-3172.pdf
http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/theses/available/etd-05052008-171103/
Investigating molecular recognition and biological function at interfaces
using piscidins, antimicrobial peptides from fish
http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/library/publications/NHMFL_Publication-3172.pdf
Chibils
halide loyalist
There's been plenty of anecdotal evidence around here to support it. Nothing empirical, but quite a few stories from people that only seem to have problems with carbon. imo, if it's actually involved, it's a trigger, causing secondary or tertiary "ripples" to the water chemistry that incites hlle, possibly due to the stress caused by these ripples.
Just to clarify - the use of certain types of activated carbon is KNOWN to cause HLLE, myself and another researcher have demonstrated that independently of one another. The question is WHY and WHAT type of carbon causes this. The other researcher is looking into the "why" and I have a grant to study "what" types of carbon causes this. My own study is just starting, but the other researcher is about to submit for publication.
Here is some additional information:
* Not all types of carbon causes issues (pelletized seems not to)
* Protein skimmers remove carbon dust (fines) and you may not have problems in tanks with good skimmers, running with wet skimmate.
* Most cures for HLLE involve moving the fish to a new aquarium.
* It has never been demonstrated that grounding probes have any benefit.
* It has never been demonstrated that any infectious agent is involved (except Hexamita in FW fish).
* Carbon is not the only cause, but it *is* one of the causes.
* Run a Google search for "Hemdal HLLE" for more information.
Jay Hemdal
Here is some additional information:
* Not all types of carbon causes issues (pelletized seems not to)
* Protein skimmers remove carbon dust (fines) and you may not have problems in tanks with good skimmers, running with wet skimmate.
* Most cures for HLLE involve moving the fish to a new aquarium.
* It has never been demonstrated that grounding probes have any benefit.
* It has never been demonstrated that any infectious agent is involved (except Hexamita in FW fish).
* Carbon is not the only cause, but it *is* one of the causes.
* Run a Google search for "Hemdal HLLE" for more information.
Jay Hemdal
bigworm175
New member
I agree with you Scott. I have a hard time believing that its carbon itself that causes HLLE because too many people run it and have no problems. I've heard it suggested that its only certain (brands) that are culprits. I can't help but wonder if there's something certain activated carbons set in motion though.
Does anyone know whether HLLE occurs in the wild?
Does anyone know whether HLLE occurs in the wild?
bigworm175
New member
Jay! Just as I was posting you snuck in there. You're the guy I was talking about at the beginning. What's the website you sent me to some time ago?
Edit: never mind, its up there Duh!
Edit: never mind, its up there Duh!
Last edited:
ddefilippis
New member
Jay - Are certain tangs more prone to HLLE than others? I have maintained a yellow and hippo for about five years, and running a light amount of carbon. The hippo has had HLLE for about three of those years and has not responded to Selcon, nori, etc. I have read that mud refugiums have been linked as a possible cure for HLLE, but I do not know if this is founded. Anyone else know of potential cures?
HLLE looks different on yellow tangs - because their skin is yellow, you can't really see the lesions as light-colored spots like you can with hepatus tangs. In bad cases, the yellow tangs will get scalloped edging on their fins. IMO though, hepatus get it far more easily. Atlantic blue tangs and doctorfish also seem to get it more often than other tangs. Bristletooth tangs don't get it quite as readily.
Jay
Jay
davelin315
10 & Over Club
In my case, when I removed the carbon from the system (nothing else really changed, food has always been high quality and always kept disease at bay) the HLLE stopped and regressed a bit, but whenever I run too much flow through the carbon and notice that it's spreading into the tank, then I end up with HLLE again and it always stops and regresses when I stop using it.
I don't get this problem when I simply run carbon in my system, nor do I get it when I run carbon in a bag. I only get this problem when the carbon ends up breaking up into finer dust when I run the flow too high through whatever I have it in.
I don't get this problem when I simply run carbon in my system, nor do I get it when I run carbon in a bag. I only get this problem when the carbon ends up breaking up into finer dust when I run the flow too high through whatever I have it in.
According to what i understood, if it really absorb the trace element, change of water can help to avoid fish getting HLLE.
CAN you let us Know what kind of carbon you are using.
As told earlier, carbon is not the only cause of HLLE. i have read a lot of scientist article and Talk to some Friends about that, and i dont think this is coming from one identified cause as the lack of element CAN Come from various reasons.
CAN you let us Know what kind of carbon you are using.
As told earlier, carbon is not the only cause of HLLE. i have read a lot of scientist article and Talk to some Friends about that, and i dont think this is coming from one identified cause as the lack of element CAN Come from various reasons.
WOW!
Now we are getting somewhere!
Good information as it seems that the connection with carbon may be valid - *IF* we know what type and kind, or perhaps how it was "activated" ( Some carbon is steam activated, some is phosphoric acid washed, and so on...)
AND - whether or not heavy protein skimming is being used, etc.
Jay- WHEN do you suppose you will have something conclusive? Just because I have not had to deal with HLLE - does not mean that I would not want to know how to insure that I am preventing it.
T
Now we are getting somewhere!
Good information as it seems that the connection with carbon may be valid - *IF* we know what type and kind, or perhaps how it was "activated" ( Some carbon is steam activated, some is phosphoric acid washed, and so on...)
AND - whether or not heavy protein skimming is being used, etc.
Jay- WHEN do you suppose you will have something conclusive? Just because I have not had to deal with HLLE - does not mean that I would not want to know how to insure that I am preventing it.
T
Call it a hunch, but based on years of observation (no proper experiments), I think it's quite likely HLLE is more of a general immune system deficiency problem which manifests due to one or more extra irritants (carbon dust, stray voltage, etc.) on top of a depressed immune system from captivity issues.
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