HLLE and carbon

[davelin315]

I use Black Diamond reef carbon. I don't think it has anything to do with absorption of trace elements...

 

[teesquare]

Most of us use trace elements - or replenish them via water changes, - I too doubt the trace element depletion theory as such...
But - it may still have a connection here, in that I am in line with what Bill said - It may be a suppressed immunilogic response, that any one of a number of things becomes a tipping point for the fish to show signs of HLLE.

Personal theory: I do not believe it is ONE disease that can be lumped under "HLLE". I think there are a number of different issues that can cause the response of the fish - that we recognize as HLLE.
If that is true - then there many different irritants, stimulants, and factors that can come into play to produce the appearance of the HLLE symptoms.

Jay - about ground probes: The reason they are not often effective is 2 fold: poor placement, and poor grounding circuit that they are plugged into.You may want to involve an electrician in that part of your reseach. As well - the electricity leakage often comes from poor qulity powerhead, submersible pumps and heaters. Up-grading them is the best prevention of the electricity connection with HLLE.

T

 

[bigworm175]

Do we lump many different health issues under a HLLE umbrella? If we aren't talking about the same aliment then that might be an issue. What do we know about possible similar diseases/parasites? I can't get a good pic of my hippo but I wish I could show you what is going on with mine because I believe that this particular issue is carbon related. Here's the best I can do with my horrible camera:

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[teesquare]

HLLE= Head and Lateral Line Erosion......
So - it is a moniker based on the visual symptoms. NOT causitive data.

That is why I think that when you or I look at a fish like the one in the picture - we instantly say "HLLE".
It is like saying Cancer: Which kind? Is it caused by exposure to something enviremental - or genetic? Lethal or not?
So - Cancer - just like HLLE are generalized descriptions based on visual observation - not diagnostics.

Maybe Jay's work will help us clairfy, and define the major causes though. There is hope!

 

[ddefilippis]

For comparison, based on the comment above regarding the standard HLLE generalization. Here is a photo of my hippo tang to show a difference. I saturated the (poor) photo to show the holes in the head and also along the lateral line, but still HLLE. Like I mentioned, I have been running a small amount of carbon and can not seem to get this guy better (although is still very active and a good eater). Maybe I will remove the carbon for a week or so.

 

[bigworm175]

Good point. Cancer, however, is a very defined disease. We have other diseases that may exhibit symptoms like cancer but we don't say it's cancer. Are there other known causes of these symptoms that would not be "HLLE"? That might help clearly define the possibly several different ailments. One of which might be caused by carbon, while others have different causes. If we are dealing with multiple ailments that just exhibit the same symptoms then this is a more complicated issue.

 

[teesquare]

Yes - perhaps cancer was not the best example...
But interestingly - we group ALL lateral line erosion, and ALL loss of scales, and color on the head of a fish as ..."HLLE"...right?

So - i think you are right, there exists enough suspicion that more than one influence plays a part in HLLE.
Does carbon participate in this...? I think it is just as probable as anything else I have read at this point.
T

 

[JHemdal]

teesquare,

There seems to be five different manifestations of "HLLE":

1) Typical marine fish HLLE. Carbon use is a very common cause, but because it is so commonly used, it is then difficult to determine if it is the sole cause. As I like to say, the single underlying commonality seen in ALL cases of HLLE is the presence of di-hydrogen oxide (umm - water!). Seriously, this has been the reason people have implicated such things as copper use, stray voltage, poor diet, lack of sunlight, etc.

2) That exhibited by yellow tangs. I'm not sure if the causation is the same, because the symptoms are so very different.

3) A similar problem seen in aquacultured sea basses in Australia. This is sometimes seen in long-term captive groupers. The facial pitting is more localized.

4) Freshwater fish HLLE (oscars, discus, etc.) probably caused by Hexamita protozoans in the fish's gut that may reduce the bio-availibility of some nutrients. This is the only HLLE that can be reduced by drugs - metronidazole in particular.

5) A more general pale coloration of the fish, without distinct pitting, but with some fin erosion. I'm not sure this should even be described as HLLE.


Jay

 

[teesquare]

Thanks Jay-
I was only aware that there was "A" set of visual symptoms associated/identified as HLLE.....

That of the typical erosion of the lateral line, and facial loss of scales, pitting etc.

Anything written elsewhere that we can reference yet to differentiate clearly the various types of HLLE?

Are there different nomenclatures established so that we can talk about them as individual problems?
T

 

[billsreef]

teesquare,

There seems to be five different manifestations of "HLLE":

1) Typical marine fish HLLE. Carbon use is a very common cause, but because it is so commonly used, it is then difficult to determine if it is the sole cause. As I like to say, the single underlying commonality seen in ALL cases of HLLE is the presence of di-hydrogen oxide (umm - water!). Seriously, this has been the reason people have implicated such things as copper use, stray voltage, poor diet, lack of sunlight, etc.

Got to watch out for that di-hydrogen monoxide stuff. As Jay says, it's the single underlying commonality

On a more serious note, it's the fact that so many things are anecdotaly linked as well anectodatly shown not to be linked that lead me to the thought of HLLE being a more generalized immune problem that can be triggered by some irritant being the straw that broke the camels back. I've also seen research (Blasiola) that suggests vitamin deficiancy, so that brings in dietary considerations. Also I've seen HLLE reversed by simply adding foods high in vitamin C and vitamin A to the diet, with no other husbandry changes. Vitamins important to immune system health and tissue healing. The carbon link could be easily no more than how much dust ends up in the water, granular carbons are very dusty (especially the cheaper ones), while the pelletized carbons are generally quite clean of dust.

2) That exhibited by yellow tangs. I'm not sure if the causation is the same, because the symptoms are so very different.

I think it's more a case of advanced stages of the disease after the early stages have been missed for the reasons of coloration that you mentioned before. I've also seen the same fin issues in other species (as well as other genera) of tangs when it's gone on for prolonged time.

3) A similar problem seen in aquacultured sea basses in Australia. This is sometimes seen in long-term captive groupers. The facial pitting is more localized.

I'd be real curious to look at diet in these. It's quiet common in aquaculture settings to use diets that are high in grains (cheap) and low in marine based foods (expensive). It's not unusual to see health problems in captive fish populations as a result.

4) Freshwater fish HLLE (oscars, discus, etc.) probably caused by Hexamita protozoans in the fish's gut that may reduce the bio-availibility of some nutrients. This is the only HLLE that can be reduced by drugs - metronidazole in particular.

The vast majority HLLE I've seen in oscars and discus have been oscars fed primarily (or only) feeder goldfish, and discus fed heavily (or only) beefheart, and/or kept in poor water quality. I've very rarely seen it in these fish when kept in excellent water quality and fed a variety of high quality foods. As a result I subscribe to the school of thought that the hexamita is likely a secondary infection, not the cause. I've also seen metrondiazole fail to cure HLLE without dietary and water quality changes to go along with it.

5) A more general pale coloration of the fish, without distinct pitting, but with some fin erosion. I'm not sure this should even be described as HLLE.

Without any lateral line involvement, I'm inclined to think it's something else. Most cases I've seen like this tend to respond quite favorably to water quality improvement, and in some cases I've found parasite infections that aquarist missed.