HLLE and the Carbon Connection

[BubbleMonkeyIII]

Hi Everyone,

I have been reading up a lot on HLLE all over the net since my EMP and Blue Tang suddenly began showing signs of the disease.

I finally beat back ICH, now I have another problem. .. I guess it comes with the territory?

Anyways I just wanted to share my theory that I think is POSSIBLE that Carbon/Carbon dust in the water contribute to the spread of this disease.

I cannont prove my theory, as there may be other causes for my o outbreak that just happend at the same time, but I find it IRONIC that just a few weeks after putting quite a bit of Two little fishies carbon into my PHOSBAN reactor by itself (no phosban media) after having not used it MONTHS in my tank, then suddenly my Blue and EMP both have HLLE?

Also I have to mention that by mistake the flow became too strong in the reactor due to poor flow initially so I cranked it up, only to find there was an ubstruction somewhere.. so then the flow basically powderizing the Carbon and spreading it throughout the tank. bottome line, the Reactor flow by mistake was too strong, causing that carbon to turn into dust and spread in the display tank.

So i have been putting floss into the tank and removing all the powderized carbon dust I can from my tank. I have started feeding soaked garlic food and plan on getting some selcon as sounds like I need to boost these fishes immunities no matter what the cause at this point.

Just wanted to chime in on my own experience FWIW.... I dont think there is any stray electrical current in the tank.. and IMHO the only major change in the tank recently has been the carbon.

And since reading carbon is suspect (maybe only when it gets powdered) I just wanted to let everyone know I think carbon might be a contributer to HLLE as others have thought. I have removed it from my system. Though I like the clarity and potential filtration of carbon, I have to wonder that maybe its leading to my own outbreak of HLLE.

I wonder how many HLLE sufferers also use CARBON.. feel free to post here if you are using CARBON and have HLLE.

 

[happyface888]

My friends tang got hlle, but it was not from carbon, hlle can be caused by copper, lack of vitamin c, and activated carbon. I think running carbon may or may not cause hlle, my friend is running seachem matrix carbon and it doesnt seem to make the hlle any worst than it is. A good way of helping the fish out is feeding them orange slices or frozen broccoli. I think one of the RC team members mentioned its a good way of providing vitamin-c which is used to help the fish recover from hlle since the cause is the lack of vitamin c. Feed them more nori and vitamin enriched foods.

 

[BubbleMonkeyIII]

while I think that adding Vit C, D, and possibly other good Vit added to the fish's diet may help the fish fight off HLLE, this does not convince me that this lack of VITAMINS in the fish's diet. is the CAUSE... of HLLE.

IMHO at this point, the cause is possibly related to the overuse/use of CARBON that has somehow compromised the fish's immunity in the first place.. and in some way allowing this disease to prosper.

Granted Vitamins and better supplimentation may help the fish fight off infection by natural immune boosting and possibly other natural defenses kicking in, but it does not convince me that a Vitamin Def. is the SOLE REASON for the effects we see, but rather the cure is actually to remove the SOURCE, which could be the over- USE of CARBON and carbon dust into the water volume and THEN suppliment.

I dont understand WHAT carbon use and carbon dust might be doing to accelerate this disease in our fish, and how it effects our fish, but I only know that introduction of carbon in DUST even in minute form, may indeed introduce the disease due to to some removal of some important element in our carbon filtered water, that somehow contributes to the fish's natural defenses weakening.

While adding better food, and bolstering the fish's overall immune system might help the fish fight off the effects of the carbon and recover quickly, my question is WHY is the carbon dust lowering or introducing something into our tank's environment that allows this disease to flourish in the first place? And if so, shouldnt we find out what exactly is the CARBON removing that is allowing HLLE to prosper?

I have heard recently that there is a dinoflagelate? sp as the cause of HLLE? Sounds good but. this needs more study, sure its possible the carbon addition is just a coincedence in my case, though I have my doubts I remain open to other opinions.

I had ZERO case of HLLE until I added this latest CARBON introduction into my Phosban reactor, and IMHO to be honest as others also do, I have been changing some things in my volume/system so I cannot 100% be sure that is the CARBON alone doing this, but I have my suspicions, because, this was one of the MAIN filter elements that were added to my system just as the disease showed up.

Then reading that Carbon use may be related only convinced me more that carbon use might be contributing to the spread of this disease HLLE.

 

[gobiefish]

just my oppinion I rely soly on my live rock and sand for filltration. I occasionaly run carbon pads to remove any irritating stinging cells that may build up and cause irritation to some corals from time to time . I also depend on my euro reef rs 80 skimmer what a life saver . Just my 2cent's

 

[jmccown]

I concur. I can confirm with you that carbon does cause HLLE. When I first set my tank up I had a perfect purple tang. I used carbon in the tank and he developed severe HLLE. I read somewhere many months back that carbon causes HLLE and discontinued using it. I used a varied diet with many vitamins and had the HLLE 99% healed. My water had a yellow tint so I started using carbon to clear it up. No other variables changed on my tank. Within a week and a half the HLLE came back and is now much worse than before. Tonight I removed all carbon from my tank. I will continue with my testing and report back in time to advise whether the tang is healing again now that I have removed the carbon. I will never use it again on my tanks. It does make the water very nice and clean, but I am convinced that it is not healthy for fish. Consider that there has never been a report of HLLE in a fish that lives in the ocean. Now, take into conisderation that carbon is not native to the ocean. I believe it robs vital nutrients from the water that fish need. Some fish probably are more susceptibe than others, namely the purple tang. Certainly there is no scientific evidence of this, but this is my experience and I do not recommend using carbon whatsoever. If my fish do not heal up after removing the carbon then there is another culprit and I will eat my words, but CARBON DOES CAUSE HLLE. Myth BUSTED!

 

[happyface888]

What about purgeon?

 

[jmccown]

what is purgeon? Do you mean purigen?

 

[Percula9]

This is the first time I've heard that carbon and HLLE are linked. I run carbon all the time without any problem. Eco-systems makes a product called Fish Maintenance that is supposed to cure it.

 

[Sk8r]

soaking formula 2 in zoe helped heal one persistent case in my knowledge.

 

[jmccown]

A few weeks have passed since running carbon. My purple tang is now healing again.

 

[smcnally]

I think it's a load of crap. Maybe certain fish are more sensitive to carbon and maybe it helps already sick fish develop it faster, but I just don't believe it. I had a hippo that had HLLE from the day I got it (it developed it in another tank) and I run carbon all the time. Through proper feeding I got it's HLLE to clear up a lot but never totally went away. If carbon causes it then why did none of my other tangs ever show a sign of it? Why don't the fish at public arquariums (who run TONS of carbon) show signs of it more often? Adding the carbon may have stressed your fish which in turn may have caused the HLLE to show back up, but I just don't believe it caused it. I'd be willing to bet if you kept running carbon for a few months and kept feeding your tang well with garlic and such that it would go back down.

 

[smcnally]

I just re-read my post and it sounded a bit harsh. I didn't mean for it to come across that way. Basically I was trying to say that I disagree with the carbon connection to HLLE (in case it wasn't obvious )

 

[MGB]

I'm not convinced carbon has a direct link to HLLE. What you've got to remember is that carbon has been used extensively for many years, in many tanks without any detrimental side effects. The most obvious links are to diet, which makes a lot more sense. Diet, water quality, and stress levels are common causes of the majority of fish ailments, just as it is with any husbandry of sensitive animals.

MGB