How do I plan a Seahorse Tank?

[Squall]

I have reef tank with all the colorful fish and corals that I want. But I would like to set up a Seahorse tank. Just don't know how. First I don't have space for a large tank. Could I set up a 30 gallon, with live rock, sand bed, lots of macro algae, and a hang on back skimmer or filter? (is the skimmer or filter better or should I use both?) Not sure on lighting- looking into what kind would be enough- 4 bulb HO T5 probably. I can't fit a sump where I can put the tank, otherwise would use one. So where do people put the heaters? Also, do seahorses like powerheads, or how much water flow do they need. What books should I read. I am not even sure what seahorses I want- smaller (I don't want dwarf seahorses though) and something more rugged since they will be my first horses. All I want is a pair of horses and the seaweed/macroalgae. Don't really want any corals or fish or anything else in with them besides a small cuc. Can I pull this off in a 30 gallon tank, or do all the seahorses need large tanks (besides the dwarf seahorses)?

Thanks.

 

[con999]

well it sounds like your a bingger. right now you should READ READ READ. no relly i have spent over 100 hours reading up on horses, and mine are doing great. theirs a lot of qustions in this thread. and most of them are pretty basic and you could find the answers on a few sites. i dont have the links but hopefully someone dose.

 

[rayjay]

The best I can do for answering is to direct you to the links at the bottom of "MY THOUGHTS ON SEAHORSE KEEPING" page.
These links can give you all the basics you need to know to start forward in the seahorse keeping hobby.

 

[LisaD]

I think your basic idea for your seahorse tank will work fine. You can keep a pair of H erectus in a 29 gallon tank. This is a very good, hardy beginner seahorse, are being captive bred, and very nice species overall. Try seahorsesource.com. I don't recommend Ocean Rider. This is just my personal preference and experience, not trying to trash anyone. I've received nice seahorses from both.

Since you have reefs, just do what you know to keep water quality high.

I'd go taller, rather than longer, and avoid the 30 gallon tank - thus the 29. Seahorses need height as well as length. I'd go with a shallow sand bed, 2" or less, to preserve tank height. Keep water flow moderate, and at surface/behind rocks so you don't interfere with swimming (seahorses are weak swimmers). Provided "hitches" - can be fake coral, macro, I believe in HOB skimmers, some don't. Buy captive bred, CB will be trained to eat frozen mysis, and much less likely to be stressed/diseased/starving than WC.

Feed 1-2X a day, with frozen mysis as the base of the diet. Seahorses need to be fed daily. Some variety, and supplementing with vitamins is fine. I often thaw mysis in the microwave along with an Ocean Nutrition cube, and when the cube dissolves, mix it with the mysis. (Just don't cook the mysis.)

Be sure temperatures are below 80. Mid-70s are best. Avoid sudden wide swings of temperature.

Avoid other tankmates, unless you just keep a few neon gobies or something else tiny that won't harass the seahorses. Even take care with hermit crabs, some will go after seahorses. I find scarlet reef hermits are docile enough. True peppermint shrimp are good tankmates, and control aiptasia.

Lighting is unimportant - keep enough to maintain coralline algae, and any macroalgae. Do not keep any stinging corals. Mushroom polyps, leather corals, and the like are okay. If you keep these, you will need moderate reef lighting.

I don't use a heater. Temperatures in my tanks rarely if ever go below 75 because of the ambient house temperature and heat given off by pumps, lights. IME, heaters are more likely to fail by overheating. If you need a heater to keep temperature consistent, just get a submersible with rubber clips and hide it behind the rocks. If you don't have some kind of mesh cover over it, it is a burn risk.

 

[con999]

well horses should be keeped at 74 max. some ppl use chillers even. the chance of bactria growing and killing the horses abouve 74 is huge. but at a temp from 69 to 73 the chances are relly low

 

[Squall]

Thanks for the info. I will look into the websites everyone recommended. Would anyone recommend a book (or several) for me to get? I was going to buy from seahorsesource.com because of the favorable reviews I've heard on it.

 

[LisaD]

I don't know of any current and reliable books.

I disagree that temperatures "have" to be 73 or less. Most seahorses are tropical. Mid-70s, and staying below 80 F is a reasonable target. Keep water quality very good, keep stress low, buy CB healthy specimens and feed properly. All should be good.

 

[rayjay]

As mentioned, the books available are mostly out of date by the time they got to print stage let alone now.
I would advise the "WORKING NOTES: A guide to seahorse diseases" available from http://www.cafepress.ca/seahorses.55655887
The reason lower temperatures are recommended are not that seahorses can't take the warmer temperatures as indeed they come from warmer waters in the wild, but because in our captive systems, bacteria multiply exponentially at temperatures above 74°F and over the years, the majority of experienced keepers found MUCH better odds of success at that lower range.
It's not that it is impossible to succeed at the higher temps, just that there are many many more failures in the attempts at the higher ranges, especially with newer seahorse keepers.
There definitely is no better place to buy from the seahorsesource.com.

 

[LisaD]

I've found that if water conditions are very good, healthy and CB seahorses are purchased, proper QT is followed, and an appropriate environment provided, then mid-70s is fine, with occasional higher temperatures okay.

To keep seahorses at 69-73 as CON99 states, is just not realistic in many parts of the US, without a chiller. Even 74 is difficult to maintain year round in many places, especially once you factor in heat from pumps and lights.

Proper attention to other husbandry is as important as temperature control. Bacterial disease is a problem in seahorses, but it can often be avoided by proper husbandry. Staying on the lower side of temperature is a good recommendation, but I don't think it's a "must". And below 70F for tropical species is certainly not necessary, though lowering temperature can be useful in fighting an established bacterial infection. Avoiding fluctuations, and keeping temperatures consistently below 80 has worked for me.

BTW, I wrote the Foreword in the Working Notes publication you cite, rayjay.

 

[rayjay]

Well Lisa, with all due respect for your experience, knowledge, and your Forward comment, I still feel it's wrong to advise a new keeper to go against the PRESENT DAY recommendations of the majority of the "org" membership and today, they number one recommendation appears to me to be a temperature range of 68° to 74°F. By the way, even those "Working Notes" are badly in need of updating based on present recommendations viewed on the "org" lately.
It is an especially important thing to me based on my personal experiences, and, based on the experiences of almost ALL who have purchased seahorses anywhere around me. It is hard to find anyone now, still having seahorses that were purchased a year or more ago.
While some of the ones still around have been kept in warmer water and non recommended conditions, they are not the norm and as such we should not, IMO, encourage new seahorse keepers to do so when only a very small percentage of the seahorses survive under those conditions.
Here in Canada it's a lot worse than in the US because we hardly ever get TRUE captive bred, but mostly pen raised and tank raised seahorses which don't have as successful a track record that true captive bred ones have.
We need Dan to move here to Canada with his business.
I find the comment that it is hard in some parts of the US to keep the temperature at 74 without a chiller to be a bit disturbing.
Are people in those areas to just accept the fact that more seahorses will die because they are not going to keep the water cooler to increase the chances of survival?
You mention that proper husbandry being as important as the temperature and I agree to a point. However, there are just SO many interpretations of "proper husbandry" that a new keeper can be in trouble before they realize that they aren't doing enough to keep the bacteria in check.
Then too, I find many hobbyists start off doing well in the husbandry respect, but after a period of time they taper off and don't apply the same due diligence needed, resulting many times in the loss of the seahorse(s).
It's my feeling that we need to give the advice to new keepers that will give them the BEST chances of success, and then as they gain experience and are successful using the recommended methods, they can chose to try to vary their set ups to other wants.

 

[LisaD]

You mention that proper husbandry being as important as the temperature and I agree to a point. However, there are just SO many interpretations of "proper husbandry" that a new keeper can be in trouble before they realize that they aren't doing enough to keep the bacteria in check.

Looks like proper husbandry is exactly what we are discussing. Proper temperature is an aspect of proper husbandry. We are in some disagreement what is a proper and realistic temperature range. Your upper ceiling is close to my mid-range recommendation.

However, no matter how cool a tank is kept, temperature won't compensate for deficiencies in other aspects of proper care. BTW, some pathogenic bacteria flourish at cooler temperatures, it all depends on what environment they are adapted to.

I understand your points, but I think you are being a bit dogmatic. And why would you question that it can be difficult to maintain a temperature of 74 or LESS consistently without a chiller? Don't you have summer in Canada? I have a 1/3 hp chiller on my 210 gallon tank, which is lit by (cooler) PC fluorescents, and has low-heat water pumps. Even with the chiller set, and only two of the six lights going, the tank is difficult to maintain at below 77 F. This is not a seahorse tank, the example is to illustrate that it is not easy to keep tanks in the low 70s.

What I have seen is that many new keepers of seahorses have never kept a saltwater tank before. (Not the case with the OP.) I believe that failure with seahorses is not always due to temperature, but from not understanding proper maintenance of water quality. I'm not saying keeping lower temperatures is not one useful husbandry practice, but it doesn't replace other good practices, and it is not realistic to impose temperature conditions that are not necessary to seahorse health (68 or 69F for tropical species) that people may not be able to maintain.

For truly subtropical and temperate seahorses, temperatures in the low 70s and considerably below (for temperate species) are appropriate at all times. For example, H. capensis should not be kept as a tropical seahorse. For tropical animals, I agree that mid-70s is the target temperature of where they should be kept. I think keeping the temperatures below 80 is a realistic ceiling for most keepers, and with proper husbandry, healthy animals will thrive in this range. I'm not saying 80 is good, I'm saying do what you can to stay a few degrees back from that ceiling. To say seahorses will die if you don't keep them at 74 all the time is not only wrong, it's unrealistic to expect without a chiller.

I agree on the need to update any current works on seahorses. I don't claim to be an expert, but I am an experienced hobbyist, experienced with seahorses, and I do know what I am talking about.

BTW, if you look on the seahorsesource site, the temperature range for tropical seahorses is consistent with what I would recommend, which is 72-77. Average of mid-70s, , +/- 2 or 3 degrees, being sure to keep it below 80. NOT 74 as the top limit.

You and I have each repeated/clarified our positions at least twice. How about we agree to disagree, even though I'm not sure we disagree all that much on proper care of seahorses?

 

[rayjay]

However, no matter how cool a tank is kept, temperature won't compensate for deficiencies in other aspects of proper care. BTW, some pathogenic bacteria flourish at cooler temperatures, it all depends on what environment they are adapted to.

I agree that various bacteria flourish at other temperatures but the ones we are concerned with mainly as seahorse keepers are ones that multiply exponentially with each rising degree, especially above 74°F.
I feel that keeping the lower temperatures DOES somewhat mitigate conditions where the keeper might get a little lax in housekeeping chores but agree that it certainly won't solve continued negligent attention.

why would you question that it can be difficult to maintain a temperature of 74 or LESS consistently without a chiller? Don't you have summer in Canada? I have a 1/3 hp chiller on my 210 gallon tank, which is lit by (cooler) PC fluorescents, and has low-heat water pumps. Even with the chiller set, and only two of the six lights going, the tank is difficult to maintain at below 77 F. This is not a seahorse tank, the example is to illustrate that it is not easy to keep tanks in the low 70s.

I may not have explained myself sufficient here as I don't question the difficulty of keeping tanks cooler in warm weather. I DO however, feel that if one cannot afford to keep seahorses, or anything else that is alive, in situations that are best suited for best chances of survival, then one should not get into that hobby, whatever it may be.
It would not be unlike someone keeping a fish in a tank a way too small for the fish because they can't afford or don't have the room to set up a properly sized tank. Not the best analogy but the only one I can think of at the moment.

What I have seen is that many new keepers of seahorses have never kept a saltwater tank before. (Not the case with the OP.) I believe that failure with seahorses is not always due to temperature, but from not understanding proper maintenance of water quality. I'm not saying keeping lower temperatures is not one useful husbandry practice, but it doesn't replace other good practices, and it is not realistic to impose temperature conditions that are not necessary to seahorse health (68 or 69F for tropical species) that people may not be able to maintain.

I agree with all but the last part of this in that I'm not imposing temperature conditions, I'm recommending them in order to increase the chances of success. I also agree that it doesn't have to be down to the bottom end of the scale, unless one has to treat for perhaps a bacterial problem, but feel that the range is there so that people know the low end is acceptable if needed or if chosen to operate at.

I think keeping the temperatures below 80 is a realistic ceiling for most keepers, and with proper husbandry, healthy animals will thrive in this range. I'm not saying 80 is good, I'm saying do what you can to stay a few degrees back from that ceiling. To say seahorses will die if you don't keep them at 74 all the time is not only wrong, it's unrealistic to expect without a chiller.

I've never said, and I don't think most experienced people recommending the lower temperatures have stated that the seahorses WILL die if not kept at 74°, only that the chances of success are reduced, the higher the temperature gets.
We obviously won't agree on the chiller part because I still feel that if you can't provide for best chances of success for the seahorse, then don't get into the hobby and possibly cause more seahorse deaths.

BTW, if you look on the seahorsesource site, the temperature range for tropical seahorses is consistent with what I would recommend, which is 72-77. Average of mid-70s, , +/- 2 or 3 degrees, being sure to keep it below 80. NOT 74 as the top limit.

You and I have each repeated/clarified our positions at least twice. How about we agree to disagree, even though I'm not sure we disagree all that much on proper care of seahorses?

Yes I'm aware that Dan feels that below 78° works most of the time but still 77 is a little different than saying "below 80°" which someone else will push to 79°.
I'm aware that we will continue to disagree, but I welcome discussion like this because it brings the subject to the attention of those wishing to get into the hobby and all I can do is hope that people read enough to make sure they have a better chance of success.

 

[namxas]

rayjay,

IMHO, the 74*F temp "upper limit" is a good rule of thumb, and certainly what I'd recommend to novice SH keepers/aquarists, as it does indeed provide some "fudge factor" in terms of any mistakes in basic husbandry.

Will SH die if they're kept above 74*F but below 80*F? Given good conditions and husbandry, nope, assuming large swings are avoided. Do I (personally) feel that 74*F max for tropical species SH systems a good way to go? Yeppers, but it's not the ONLY way. Just to illustrate a point/preference, Renee and I keep ALL of our non-SH setups </= 77*F because we feel that it's better in the long term for captive systems. Generally speaking, there are fewer pathogens (assuming no temp spikes), higher dissolved 02 concentrations, and the fish don't "burn themselves out" metabolically.

I know you're passionate about SH-keeping, and even tho we all have our own way of doing things, there are lots of ways to "git-r-done" in the hobby. By all means, recommend what works for you and you're opinion, but if you run around with a "full cup", you'll never be able to add anything to it, which would be a shame since we're ALL learning new things.

FWIW, I actually know Lisa IRL, and she's one of the sharpest aquarists/persons I know, hands down, and she has a LOT of "SH-keeping" under her belt. She's brilliant IMHO.

JMHO...

 

[DanU]

Since I am being mentioned and this thread was pointed out to me, I going to pipe in!

I do recommend lower temperatures. Those that know me or have read my threads know that I believe that 72 to 74 F is the ideal temperature range for seahorses in aquaria. Having said that, I would have to agree with Lisa that it is unrealistic expectation for everyone to keep them at that temperature year round nor do I believe it has to be done. We don't! For us, we hit the target range of 72 to 74 in the spring and fall, drop as low as 68 during the winter months and go as high as 78 during July, August and September.

If the only folks who bought or were allowed to buy seahorses were those with chillers, we would be out of business as well as any other breeder. 95% or more of market would be gone! There are many, many seahorse keepers would do try to kept their tanks in the lower ranges that have to deal with warmer temps for a portion of the year and do so successfully.

It is worth pointing out, that we do receive more help calls and see more issues internally during the summer months, but that is not everyone who has a seahorse or all seahorses. Only a small portion.

When talking with customers we do mention temperatures and we do caution folks with temperatures in upper 70's and recommend the mid 70's. We will also tell those that keep temps 80 or above, their chances of long term success are greatly reduced.

I also believe that the lower temperature range is a quick fix to an issue that we ultimately need to learn to resolve. It goes against the common sense of folks who know that the natural temperature range for some species in the wild such as H. reidi is in the upper 70's to low 80's. We have some clues to the issue, we just need to figure it out. There have been a lot of advances in the hobby but we still have a long ways to go!

As long term seahorse hobbyist's and posters in various seahorse forums, I also believe we should be careful how we post. If we are too adamant, come across as dogmatic about something, we earn the reputation of "Seahorse Nazi" or "Seahorse Police" and instantly lose creditability. Folks will tune us out or worse, the thread becomes argumentative. Argumentative threads become about winning the argument, not learning. Lets face it, while many are looking for help or advice, they are also looking for reasonable solutions and rarely do they consider the "Seahorse Police" to be reasonable.

There many, many folks who keep not just seahorses but other creatures in their tanks in an unorthodoxed fashion. I have learned that the words "never" and "always" should be eliminated from the hobby. As a retailer, I do caution folks and use terms such as "maybe", "not recommended" or "probably won't work", but also try to find a work around for their particular circumstance that is acceptable to them. There are many who are very observant and attentive to their tanks and willing to adjust as they go. To this type of person, it is part of the learning process! Much of fun of this hobby is the experimentation. It is also how we come across new ways of doing things.

Dan

 

[rayjay]

OK folks, it's taken a bit to get through to me but I will do my best to tone things down in my comments, even though I still don't believe it best to recommend the high 70's to new keepers.
Thanks to all for "putting things nicely" and not just hammering me for my posts.

 

[ltljoker]

Rayjay I commend you for your tasteful and humble remarks. it is very easy for people to just fly off the handle when people point out that their way isnt the only way. :dance: My hats is off to a class act.:thumbsup: I see so many arguments get out of hand because of ego's

 

[namxas]

I do like the way this thread turned out...nice discussion.

I DO want to "fix" what ended up being a sentence fragment in my post tho...I guess for whatever reason you can't put <, /, and = together without a space...

rayjay,
Just to illustrate a point/preference, Renee and I keep ALL of our non-SH setups < / = 77*F because we feel that it's better in the long term for captive systems.

 

[namxas]

Altho I'm sure you'll find a few peeps who do this, I don't recommend it at ALL. A reef setup typically isn't "SH-friendly" due to excessive flow and improper tankmates (e.g., stinging corals and or fast/aggressive, etc. fish/inverts). The temp issue has been well-covered in this thread.

As for clownfish, they're nothing more than nasty little damsels in fancy PJ's and generally become more nasty with maturity.

It may sound like there are a lot of "nay-sayers" when folks ask about keeping SH, but there isn't much accurate info out there in published form, so your best resources are experienced SH-keepers.

Once established, SH aren't hard to keep, but they ARE "special needs" fish, and to have the best chances of success, those needs must be met. A novice keepers best bet is to set them up in a dedicated system that has been designed with SH in mind from the get-go.

HTH