How do we Fight the Name Game?

Can you identify of which coral (Zoa) having 40 different names after feeding it different food and light?

No offence, just my curiousity. Thanks

Fire and ice appear on zoaid a minimum of 40 times, "ice bergs" are on there at least a dozen or so times, eye of rah are on there 20-30 times, red halos have about 6-8 different names, magicians have a few...

I could go on, but it's easier to just say that almost every single zoanthid on zoaid is on there a minimum of 3-4 times under different names, and for the most part each person named them and sold them as if they were the only ones with them. The best way to stop the repeats on zoaid would be for them to only accept pictures of zoanthids that have 100% covered a 50 cent piece sized frag plug.
 
What if you could sell the same golden retriever 40 different times just by putting it under different light, feeding it different food and calling it 40 different names? Are those names good for identification purposes, or are they all just going to be the same golden retriever once they get normal food and light? Either way, now they're owned by people who maybe didn't want or realize that they were getting a golden retriever.

You forgot to quote the second part :beer:. But in regards to the dog example...a short haired retriever is now a lab that come in a few different colors (choc, black, yellow). My golden retriever has also got a darker coat as she grew from a pup. Anyways that is another topic.

The name game is not the problem. Look at all the names we have for dogs. If you have a "golden retriever" and do not want to call it that would you talk to other dog owners or vet saying you just own a medium dog with long golden hair? Names are good for identification purposes.

The problem lays with the "lineage" and when the names are used to hype. It is the "INTRODUCING XYZ from JOHN DOE....limited edition" blah blah blah.


Lets face it...we are stuck with names. Sure we are going to have some people call the same thing different over and over again. That is inevitable and annoying. Maybe we should tell zoaid to just group all the similar morphs together.
 
I really don't mind what they are named, but I believe they do promote hording, and relative scarcity. It's kinda mental, not to give a frag of everything in your tank to the local reefers in your area. In doing this you insure against the next tank crash or meltdown. If I knew I took a frag of all my favorites to my friends, and kept a log book of where they were, then I'd have a frag stock in all those tanks to re-populate if my tank crashed. Plus they'd have an awesome tank too.

I remember before the frag naming game huge online frag swaps. It was easy, you just put a frag of your coolest in a thermos, and sent it to someone, they would then put a really cool frag in the thermos and return. All you were out was shipping. Now that I see that zoas can be packaged moist and not have to be floating in water, then it makes this really easy to send several frags of polyps.

I know this would belong in the trading section, and not in the Zoa section, but wouldn't it be nice if this were set up again.

If we flood the market with the really cool zoas, the prices will come down. I know that the guy that just paid 1000 bucks for the holy grail of chalices, was still ticked off by the price, just like the rest of us. You who bought those uber priced ones did so because you thought even at a rediculous price it was worth the cost for the color, how about being liberal with frags, and get the market going better.

That's just my .02
Aaron
 
I've never bought a zoa online-- and never paid more than 15 dollars for a frag. My LFSs suck...in a big way. They're attitudes are terrible-- always acting like I'm burdening them by asking for help-- so I don't give them my business. I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I value good customer service highly and even if you have what I want, you lose my business if you are rude....but i digress..

It's interesting that the addition of names to these corals creates a spike. The public responds to the names by willing to pay a premium price. It seems many are somehow obsessed with something having a name. I wonder, is this a result of the constant media blitz we see every day, where branding (naming things) is used so extensively?

Outside of the reef hobby, I'm also a gardener and the same thing happens, but I think for a different reason. Take orchids for instance-- a NOID (no ID) is synonymous with cheap and mass-produced. I suppose you could try to mass produce zoas but I would think the ability to do that is pretty limited. However, the NAMED orchids can call a higher price-- and inherently, because of the name, vendors can get away with this because named cultivars are also registered culitvars-- which means the serious hobbiest knows the genealogy of the plant and therefore you can use the plant in breeding for future hybrids. So at least in the case of plants, having a name variety allows that variety to be registered and when registered, you know going into breeding them the genes you have to work with...

But I don't care about the names of zoas. I think I have one named watermelon and the other dragon eye something-or-another... I chose them because I liked them and the price was right.

I get my zoas from a local guy-- he sells his stock on ebay and from his website and just happens to be 5 miles down the road. He also happens to be very knowledgeable and very helpful in all matters of reef keeping. So he gets my business! His zoas are named. But they're also not outrageously expensive.

So that brings up another question... even if you do price your zoas right, do you keep the names because that appeals to people? As a vendor, you are knowingly giving up potential profit by keeping them names but pricing lower, much lower in some cases, than the competitors. I suppose in that case, though, one's personal ethos come into play. I would think this would be the Achilles heal of the vendors over-pricing their frags... undermine them by pricing right and keeping the names. You appeal to the customer with good prices and names, for whatever they're worth to the individual.

I find it is also very difficult for people to overcharge you for something when you have the opportunity to look them in the eye as they try to pass off a huge mark-up to you. The eyes tell all... lol And so does my walking out...
 
1) You can't fight the name game as long as there are people willing to pay insane prices for corals. I have been in this hobby since 2002, before acans and chalices and favias were in vogue, and before zoos became name happy. Frankly zoos are not nearly as high priced as they used to be especially if you buy or trade locally. I remember when Blane Perun first named the PPE and had the famous PPE pic and would sell them on ebay and get something like $800 a polyp! Now there are very few zoos you cant find.

2) The name game has some advantages. From my expereince the names corals with some history (linegage) that have been in captavity for generations tend to be much hardier and much better adapted to our aquariums. I remember having several temp and kalk spikes in my older tank, and while my named ones might havebrowned out they all survived, the same couldnt be said for other corals. So while you might pay a premium, in most case you have a tested and much hardier coral.

3) By buying named corals or corals that have been in captivity you prevent further over farming of the reefs, and in most cases (unless you have a crappy seller which there are plenty) you home that you are getting pest free corals, and thats a big if, rather than wild corals that could have the next red bug or next type of zoo bug or whatver that our aquariums have yet to deal with.

4) Problem: Named corals promote "identity theft" lol That is while you think you are buying a captive coral that has been in an aquarium for some time, we may often be buying a knock off, wild similar morph that as people have said has simply been chopped up off the dock.

5) My pet peve: It really bothers me when people think this hobby is about setting up a mini coral farm and they buy some corals and then want crazy dollars for their frags when they sell them privately. I understand trying to recoup some money in this hobby, but there are plenty of people who are guilty of selling corals just as high has retailers, and they are just as much to blame as the retailers.

6) Frankly, I would rather pay a higher price from a retailer. Maybe some people have been around but being a livestock retailer, especially in named corals that you farm in your own systems is not easy. The overhead must be crazy in terms of equipment alone let alone normal operating expenses. When you look at all of the great retailers that have come and gone over the years, it only takes one major catosrophe and the livestock is gone. The risk is very high.

If people dont like the name game, the best way to beat it, is to buy nice named corals grow them out and sell them cheap and flood the market. I tend to always sell corals cheap offer free ones to local reefers who have had crashes etc.

Until all of the local hobbyist stop paying the prices, or you pay the price but then sell your frags cheap it wont go away. I still see plently of private people ask very high prices for chalices and zoos and sps. But then again, there are a lot of people who dont.
 
Wow I have always stumbled by threads but never took the time to really read them in their entirely. This one was shorter so I indulged. WOW there is some great info here. I have talked to reefers who have been around longer and they have told me (a baby 6 months+a few months or research) to just buy what I love. So that is what I do and I love my tank, I am proud of it because it is my accomplishment. I am sustaining an eco system in my living room. Its fricken cool people, even the pods are cool. The one thing is, I get asked when I post pictures: whats that, and whats this, and I really don't know beyond its a acro,or lps or zoa, or mushroom, But heck it sure is nice to look at. So I guess it is easier for some folks to get into the "names" in this hobby, but I will continue to by what catches my eye and what I love. So far that hasn't been any "Superman's radioactive nipple rings LE" . <--that was a joke lol :fun2: I haven't quite figured out RC humor yet so . . . :)
Heidi
 
. So far that hasn't been any "Superman's radioactive nipple rings LE" . <--that was a joke lol :fun2: I haven't quite figured out RC humor yet so . . . :)
Heidi

LMAO haha that was good. I havnt had a good laugh all day. +1 on just buying what you like and love.
 
I guess really it all boils down to this:

Buy it for what it IS.
A beautiful coral at a hopefully realistic price that you like the look of.

Don't buy it for the name, hype, to be the first, for how much you can profit from it at others expense, for the "prestige", for what it looks like under unrealistic blue LED's, or because some one else likes it or says it's the coolest and rarest thing ever.

Follow you're own folly, not somebody elses.
 
You know it will wash out in the end. Pretty soon people will realize that the Emperor has no clothes. For example, Blue tubbs used to be really rare and hard to find and expensive. Now they pop up on Divers Den several times a year, and the price is about 40 bucks for a pretty good colony. 20+ polyps. The fact is, that people will keep putting corals up that sell. Acanths are starting to come down as well. So don't fear, the names will continue, the trend can't. It's only a matter of time.
 
I just don't understand why anyone would want 1 polyp of anything? There's way too much chance it will die, or something would happen and it's certainly not anything to look at, unless you are looking at your tank through a microscope. I used to buy frag packs of zoas 10 for $100 and it'd be a surpsise, greens, palys, zoas, 15 polyps min. per frag. They grew like wildfire and I was giving them away. They came on rocks, with fun macro algeas that most would probably kill right off the bat now, lol! These are all from 6 or so years ago.

2007_0617Image0054.jpg


2007_0617Image0058.jpg


2007_1008sexyshrimp0016.jpg
 
GoingPostal: LOVE that middle colony!! Purple and sparkly. Also about the "neat macro algae" I am also a weird-do and like some of the crazy looking stuff. I had a 35g hex w/ no sump for 6 months and let one rock grow with all kinds of green. It was really pretty, although I took a lot of grief for it on other forums. People really thought it was going to take over my tank and kill all my coral. :eek1: as long as its under control it can be a beautiful splotch of color. Like around those zoas it looks beautiful. My .02$
:)
Heidi
 
I cant walk into a single LFS in Colorado Springs and buy PPE or sunny delights so are they worth more?

Mr. Aqua had PPE's I believe at $15/pp. I'd like some, but not paying PP prices. They'd end up costing me almost $50, because there were 3-5 per frag. Anyway, I dislike the name game as well. I've only been reefing since 2008, so it's all I've known honestly. :(
 
Mr. Aqua had PPE's I believe at $15/pp. I'd like some, but not paying PP prices. They'd end up costing me almost $50, because there were 3-5 per frag. Anyway, I dislike the name game as well. I've only been reefing since 2008, so it's all I've known honestly. :(


Hey Will, welcome to the Zoa Zoo. Those are some powerful words you are laying down my friend and I agree with you 100 %. Again, welcome aboard and hope to see you sharing your knowledge and experiences with us my friend.


Mucho
 
theres not going to be a end in my opinion only way TO COMBAT THE PRICES of the names is to trade around frags for frags and give away which people will probably have a hard time doing with the polyps they paid 60.00-100.00 pp .

Trading/selling is not allowed in this forum~dc

but once they grow and i frag them i def. want be reselling them for what i paid for them maybe 25% of what i got in them because its alot easier to sell a 60.00pp coral for 10.00 pp or 60.00 for a small colony of them versus the 60.00 pp price that everyone is wanting for them
 
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The only real way to put a dent in the weekly trendy corals is to boycot the price gouging online vendors/sellers that cherry pick colonies and hack them up.
Put them out of buisness, and put those nice colonies back in the hands of the LFS owners where they belong. They will then be passed on to all of the responsible reefers, who will then share them with each other.

We must shift away from greed and trendyness, and back to reefing. I know its hard, when 90% of the modern reefers don't even know what reefing is... but it needs to be done.

I know I am not the only one sick of seing the never ending trendy threads like
"Why are my 1 polyp zoa frags dying?"
"How come my frags dont grow fast enough?"
"Lets see your razzle-dazzle-spazzle-hazzle paly frags!"
:rolleyes:
 
Hey Will, welcome to the Zoa Zoo. Those are some powerful words you are laying down my friend and I agree with you 100 %. Again, welcome aboard and hope to see you sharing your knowledge and experiences with us my friend.


Mucho

Thanks for the welcome. :wave: to everyone.
 
I like the names to an extent it helps me identify what they look like. Just saying something is brite green doesn't really cut it to figure out what it looks like. I, do not however like the price per polyp thing that's going on. Also, I think that when you cut the colonies down into frags you pay more attention to the detail of a polyp. For example, if I saw big colony of captian americas before seeing a small frag I'd more than likely say they were ugly. Frags help because you pay more attention the detail and not just the big picture just saying. Still not an excuse of the extreme prices, just saying the name game and low polyp count helped us appreciate each type more. Bitter sweet.
Cheers
 
To be honest theres chucks of this horse on the walls and bits in my hair from beating it so bad. You wanna make it stop and preach the zoa gospal? Then hit other sites n forums. R2r the mecca. Cant just sit here and talk we have to plant the seeds.
 
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