not to threadjack, but my tank is a few months old now and has just started the cyano outbreaks... its not bad now after some chemiclean red slime remover and 2 water changes in the past 3 days after i left my lights off for 2 days. i turned my lights on yesterday, did a 70% w/c and i can see it slowly coming back. i know all new tanks go through this, but should i be trying to fight it, or will it go away on its own soon? my readings are: trates-10, trites-0, pH-8.4, temp 78... i added some calulepra (or whatever) to feed on the trates which have been between 10 and 20 for a few weeks now. so yeah, should i fight the cyano or will it go away on its on?
How fast does a cycle run? Here's an example.
- Thread starter Sk8r
- Start date
Oh, me---I'd recommend against that caulerpa in the main tank: fine in a refugium, but absolute murder if it roots in your live rock---it's very hard to get rid of and most fish compatible with your tank size won't eat it.
Nitrates/nitrites/ammonia are all linked: you're not running a filter or sponges, are you? They can bring the nitrate up.
Cyano is a pest, but not a killer: you've lived through chemiclean, which is a scary thing to do: it kills your good bacteria [the top layer of it] as it does the cyano-bacteria, and it can actually make the nitrate/nitrite thing worse, because you've lost some of your processing ability. It WILL come back, but I'd recommend 20% water changes [don't go as high as 70%] every week and run carbon, which will take out any ammonia that results. A refugium would be a really good idea. Don't feed anything, meanwhile: your fish can actually go 2 weeks without food---they'll get grumpy, but grumpy is better than poisoned by ammonia. To reduce the cyano, increase, even double, the amount of flow in your tank, by adding another pump; try turning your lights off for 3 days; and you might try running Phosban, which will sop up phosphate. Don't use pellet or flake food: that contains phosphate, that feeds algae and, I think, cyano. Keep your tank away from direct sunlight: that increases cyano. The biggest cyano killers outside of chemiclean are strong water flow and darkness. Removing the phosphate is a good idea, too. And I'd put that caulerpa in a hang-on refugium or in a separate refugium tank piped through to your main tank: a little clever plumbing will make that work. Just a side note---I expect to have a little cyano now and again, and I just aim a water jet at it and watch my feeding for a few days and it gets better. A turkey baster can suck it up and you can spit it out of your tank that way.
Hope that helps.
Nitrates/nitrites/ammonia are all linked: you're not running a filter or sponges, are you? They can bring the nitrate up.
Cyano is a pest, but not a killer: you've lived through chemiclean, which is a scary thing to do: it kills your good bacteria [the top layer of it] as it does the cyano-bacteria, and it can actually make the nitrate/nitrite thing worse, because you've lost some of your processing ability. It WILL come back, but I'd recommend 20% water changes [don't go as high as 70%] every week and run carbon, which will take out any ammonia that results. A refugium would be a really good idea. Don't feed anything, meanwhile: your fish can actually go 2 weeks without food---they'll get grumpy, but grumpy is better than poisoned by ammonia. To reduce the cyano, increase, even double, the amount of flow in your tank, by adding another pump; try turning your lights off for 3 days; and you might try running Phosban, which will sop up phosphate. Don't use pellet or flake food: that contains phosphate, that feeds algae and, I think, cyano. Keep your tank away from direct sunlight: that increases cyano. The biggest cyano killers outside of chemiclean are strong water flow and darkness. Removing the phosphate is a good idea, too. And I'd put that caulerpa in a hang-on refugium or in a separate refugium tank piped through to your main tank: a little clever plumbing will make that work. Just a side note---I expect to have a little cyano now and again, and I just aim a water jet at it and watch my feeding for a few days and it gets better. A turkey baster can suck it up and you can spit it out of your tank that way.
Hope that helps.
i know calulerpa in my main tank isn't the smartest, but its all i can do until i move in a few months... trates have been the only thing i've had high, not even trites or ammonia... they've stayed at 0. when i move i'm upgrading to a 20 gal and using the 10 gal for a fuge... i'm running the topfin10 that came with the tank with a carbon biobag on it at the moment.
Good: that'll be helping. If caulerpa does attach to your live rock, a week for that rock lightless in a bucket with a bubbler will do it in. Carbon is good.
I'd query 2 things---number one, accuracy of your tests, which I have to assume are accurate and your nitrates really are that high. That would lead me to suspect you've had a little die-off of your denitrifying bacteria due to the Chemiclean, but it should bounce back shortly---that's why I suggest low feeding, cleaning or gradual removal of all filter media, [filters actually depress bacterial growth in the sand/rock, because they take the food away and don't get any further in the nitrogen cycle than nitrate]. You should have plenty of live rock to do the filtration. I take it you have a 4" sandbed [takes about that much to do proper layering of bacteria]...
Your plan is good: a 20g will give you a lot more oomph, with that 10g backup. I don't know the topfin 10---am thinking it might be a filter, but let me go through the checklist of common problems: filter media should be rinsed out in ro/di water weekly, be it sponge or floss. A hang-on-back [HOB] skimmer would help you a lot: the Remora would definitely work for your size operation, and I'm sure there must be others.
Second thing I'd query: a very surprising source of nitrate can be your fresh water source: some cities in agricultural areas have a lot of nitrate getting in from surrounding farmland. Unless you're using ro/di water [you can get that from a ro filtering station at your local Walmart] you may be picking it up there as fast as your other methods are taking it out. To check that, you need a TDS meter [total dissolved solids]---or ask your lfs to check the local tds; and they may just know the answer if you ask them. Very good your ammonia is staying down: that's the killer. Your carbon is taking that out. Do keep your carbon fresh every week: forgotten carbon can start releasing everything it collected back into your tank when it saturates.
Here's a brief list of what does what:
Macro algae takes out phosphate and other nutrients, helps with water purity: caution on too much in tank, because it absorbs oxygen and gives off carbon dioxide at night, the exact opposite of what it does by day.
Carbon removes ammonia, the most dangerous component of the nitrate/nitrate cycle.
Polypad/polyfilter [changed regularly] removes metals like copper and iron and organic contaminants.
Phosban removes phosphates.
A water change immediately lowers nitrate and other undesirables.
If you ever have a tank calamity, have something fall into your tank, have an algae bloom, etc, do two things fast: run carbon and do a 30% water change, then run polypad.
Emergency supplies: I keep carbon and salt on hand, should keep polypad [haven't had outstanding luck finding it these days], and I also have Amquel at hand in case the chemistry should really go south. I've actually used Amquel in a near tank-crash [prolonged skimmer failure that had gone undetected] with sps corals involved---and the corals and fish were not harmed, so I trust it pretty much. Phosban is not a bad thing to have in your kit, too, not to mention, of course, adequate tests to figure out what's wrong. I have this little chest of supplies and tests that lives right by the tank, and it's saved my bacon no few times.
You can also, if things get really crazy and you don't have a skimmer, aim a pump's outflow into a water chamber like a spare tank and skim off the resultant foam---that's pretty much what a skimmer does, and you just pump the slightly cleaner water back into your tank: it's a makeshift skimmer action that can help in a crisis. My breed of sump does this just in the way it returns water to the tank, so there's always a nasty clump of foam floating over near the inflow, before my skimmer ever gets a crack at it, but the double cleaning action doesn't hurt anything, and the regular skimmer will get it sooner or later.
Anyway, I hope this is of some help...I just got THROUGH the "move" thing, and know where you're at: everything's "make it through to the new system"---mine got dicey when I planned on a move on the 15th and the thing got delayed to the 29th and then my sump didn't come through to let me finish the plumbing---quite a wild and wooly operation....you wouldn't believe what a hassle it is trying to reduce a pipe/hose by 1/4 inch to make a necessary connection! I'm sure there are specialty connectors out there, but it was a hairy problem at the stores I frequent.
I'd query 2 things---number one, accuracy of your tests, which I have to assume are accurate and your nitrates really are that high. That would lead me to suspect you've had a little die-off of your denitrifying bacteria due to the Chemiclean, but it should bounce back shortly---that's why I suggest low feeding, cleaning or gradual removal of all filter media, [filters actually depress bacterial growth in the sand/rock, because they take the food away and don't get any further in the nitrogen cycle than nitrate]. You should have plenty of live rock to do the filtration. I take it you have a 4" sandbed [takes about that much to do proper layering of bacteria]...
Your plan is good: a 20g will give you a lot more oomph, with that 10g backup. I don't know the topfin 10---am thinking it might be a filter, but let me go through the checklist of common problems: filter media should be rinsed out in ro/di water weekly, be it sponge or floss. A hang-on-back [HOB] skimmer would help you a lot: the Remora would definitely work for your size operation, and I'm sure there must be others.
Second thing I'd query: a very surprising source of nitrate can be your fresh water source: some cities in agricultural areas have a lot of nitrate getting in from surrounding farmland. Unless you're using ro/di water [you can get that from a ro filtering station at your local Walmart] you may be picking it up there as fast as your other methods are taking it out. To check that, you need a TDS meter [total dissolved solids]---or ask your lfs to check the local tds; and they may just know the answer if you ask them. Very good your ammonia is staying down: that's the killer. Your carbon is taking that out. Do keep your carbon fresh every week: forgotten carbon can start releasing everything it collected back into your tank when it saturates.
Here's a brief list of what does what:
Macro algae takes out phosphate and other nutrients, helps with water purity: caution on too much in tank, because it absorbs oxygen and gives off carbon dioxide at night, the exact opposite of what it does by day.
Carbon removes ammonia, the most dangerous component of the nitrate/nitrate cycle.
Polypad/polyfilter [changed regularly] removes metals like copper and iron and organic contaminants.
Phosban removes phosphates.
A water change immediately lowers nitrate and other undesirables.
If you ever have a tank calamity, have something fall into your tank, have an algae bloom, etc, do two things fast: run carbon and do a 30% water change, then run polypad.
Emergency supplies: I keep carbon and salt on hand, should keep polypad [haven't had outstanding luck finding it these days], and I also have Amquel at hand in case the chemistry should really go south. I've actually used Amquel in a near tank-crash [prolonged skimmer failure that had gone undetected] with sps corals involved---and the corals and fish were not harmed, so I trust it pretty much. Phosban is not a bad thing to have in your kit, too, not to mention, of course, adequate tests to figure out what's wrong. I have this little chest of supplies and tests that lives right by the tank, and it's saved my bacon no few times.
You can also, if things get really crazy and you don't have a skimmer, aim a pump's outflow into a water chamber like a spare tank and skim off the resultant foam---that's pretty much what a skimmer does, and you just pump the slightly cleaner water back into your tank: it's a makeshift skimmer action that can help in a crisis. My breed of sump does this just in the way it returns water to the tank, so there's always a nasty clump of foam floating over near the inflow, before my skimmer ever gets a crack at it, but the double cleaning action doesn't hurt anything, and the regular skimmer will get it sooner or later.
Anyway, I hope this is of some help...I just got THROUGH the "move" thing, and know where you're at: everything's "make it through to the new system"---mine got dicey when I planned on a move on the 15th and the thing got delayed to the 29th and then my sump didn't come through to let me finish the plumbing---quite a wild and wooly operation....you wouldn't believe what a hassle it is trying to reduce a pipe/hose by 1/4 inch to make a necessary connection! I'm sure there are specialty connectors out there, but it was a hairy problem at the stores I frequent.
i'm using the 1 gal bottled distilled water from walmart b/c my lfs... the topfin 10 is a hob filter (commonly used for freshwater tanks)... i don't have a powerhead yet, but i will once i get my 20gal drilled and set up... i don't know if i'm going to use a skimmer anytime soon, i might just run the fuge and see how that works. do you think i should take the filter media out of the TopFin10? i have a shoebox full of supplies, 5 gallons of saltwater, and 1.5 gallons of distilled water on hand. my sand bed is about 2-3 inches... so yeah.
Mmm, if you do pull the filter media, take it out a bit a day, over a period of a week or so, if you have to use scissors to cut it. That'll keep spikes from happening and let your rock and sand recover and increase bacteria to cope. But I'm betting that's one significant part of your nitrate problem. Everything else you tell me is good. With 15 lbs of rock and a pretty good sandbed, your rock should be able to handle your filtration needs all on its lonesome. It's just such a PITA to keep a filter clean enough to keep nitrates down, and while 20 isn't lethal, it's just a depleted carbon sack away from producing ammonia, and that's worrisome. So yes, I'd be withdrawing that filter medium bit by bit, and when it's empty, just fill it with live rock rubble and it will still work, but better.
hmello@bermexin
New member
Hey sk8r don't shut down the thread until you get the corals in at least. We have diligently followed you through this ordeal and want desire need must have pics!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My tests, this morning, btw: salinity 1.024, a tick lower than I like, but moving the autotopoff float to allow a little evap will handle that. So would putting half a cup of salt into the big topoff barrel.
The alk, since the buffer went in yesterday [and I buffer for total water in system, not just tank size] is now 7.7. I want 8.3, so I dosed again.
My calcium is 430, which is good. It's usually a battle to get cal above 400 when you have a lot of hungry corals AND a clam in the tank, so I'm restarting my log, and I'll be keeping meticulous results. I want to keep that calcium up there, because you wouldn't believe how much a dozen corals and a clam can suck down---to those with the curious mental notion that corals aren't animals, believe me, they eat: they eat a LOT, both plain chemical, light, and floating stuff. I think I'm going to spring for tiggerpods to get the fuge going, because I've got a mandarin coming home next Friday, and I want to be sure she has enough pods to eat---right now there's just NOTHING in there. ReefNutrition ships them by air, and is very reliable. I don't know the delivery times for this new house, but I'll give UPS a call Monday to try to figure that out, and simultaneously order the pods. I just thought of that, dim me, I've been so monofocussed on tank chemistry. But I've got to start planning for the critters; and no few pods may have come in with that big wad of cheato in the refugium, but they're hard to spot, and I want to make sure my mandy doesn't have to rely on frozen---she will eat frozen, but she'd rather live. [And for those of you interested in mandys, she's a psychedelic mandy, blue/red, and does eat frozen mysis, and MAYBE frozen cyclopeeze, though she's hard to catch at the cyclopeeze. But it took her 10 months in my tank to learn this trick, so never think you can just automatically convert one or 'teach' them to eat frozen: some never will. This little gal is very small for her kind, fended for herself pretty well in a 52 where a bigger mandy might have had trouble, and took to eating mysis when pods ran a little low---she's a little greedy-guts and had taken to pal-ing around with the purple tang [who will find a new home, now]---I think she learned the trick from him.
The alk, since the buffer went in yesterday [and I buffer for total water in system, not just tank size] is now 7.7. I want 8.3, so I dosed again.
My calcium is 430, which is good. It's usually a battle to get cal above 400 when you have a lot of hungry corals AND a clam in the tank, so I'm restarting my log, and I'll be keeping meticulous results. I want to keep that calcium up there, because you wouldn't believe how much a dozen corals and a clam can suck down---to those with the curious mental notion that corals aren't animals, believe me, they eat: they eat a LOT, both plain chemical, light, and floating stuff. I think I'm going to spring for tiggerpods to get the fuge going, because I've got a mandarin coming home next Friday, and I want to be sure she has enough pods to eat---right now there's just NOTHING in there. ReefNutrition ships them by air, and is very reliable. I don't know the delivery times for this new house, but I'll give UPS a call Monday to try to figure that out, and simultaneously order the pods. I just thought of that, dim me, I've been so monofocussed on tank chemistry. But I've got to start planning for the critters; and no few pods may have come in with that big wad of cheato in the refugium, but they're hard to spot, and I want to make sure my mandy doesn't have to rely on frozen---she will eat frozen, but she'd rather live. [And for those of you interested in mandys, she's a psychedelic mandy, blue/red, and does eat frozen mysis, and MAYBE frozen cyclopeeze, though she's hard to catch at the cyclopeeze. But it took her 10 months in my tank to learn this trick, so never think you can just automatically convert one or 'teach' them to eat frozen: some never will. This little gal is very small for her kind, fended for herself pretty well in a 52 where a bigger mandy might have had trouble, and took to eating mysis when pods ran a little low---she's a little greedy-guts and had taken to pal-ing around with the purple tang [who will find a new home, now]---I think she learned the trick from him.
