How I got my "DEAD" tank to cycle in 1 week

[Greenmaster]

I would still add some ammonia first to be sure that it can process it... I'm not a fan of a "fish-in" cycle... although Mikey may have had a good die off to provide a proper cycle, not everyone will get the same "ideal" rock. I still say adding some ammonia and testing to make sure it is gone is the best bet. Especially if you have the time to wait anyways. But always remember when you get the ammonia make sure there is no surfactant.

 

[thefuz]

I'm on board with fish-less. I'd rather not stress them out; especially given that it seems folks have had good success with ammonia dosing. Starting out all dead so I don't have any colonies to begin with and will have to add them separately. Anyone tried Dr. Tim's? Ideally, I think I'll be best served adding at least two different types and let them duke it out.

Also, I've read of folks dosing carbon via vinegar but can't find a reliable measure for how much.

 

[Greenmaster]

vinegar affects the pH quite a bit... I think alcohol is a better bet... something like vodka.

 

[bertoni]

Vinegar is about 8 times more dilute than vodka, in terms of carbon content. If you want to switch, I'd do the change gradually. Some people seem very happy with vinegar dosing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

vinegar affects the pH quite a bit... I think alcohol is a better bet... something like vodka.

The immediate effect of vinegar on pH is more, but as it becomes metabolized vodka also lowers pH, and the effect overall is the same when both are fully converted into CO2.

 

[philbo32]

I kept my KH up EXTREMELY IMPORTANT! For every 1 part ammonia that bacteria turn into nitrate the following are required.
4.18 parts oxygen
7.14 parts alkalinity as calcium carbonate (as CaCO3)
12 parts alkalinity as sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3)
For bacteria to turn Nitrate into Nitrogen you need a carbon source I chose alcohol as ethanol as I have heard of many people who use vodka.
For every part of Nitrate that is turned into nitrogen you have 3.0 to 3.6 pounds of alkalinity as calcium carbonate (as CaCO3) produced.
At the end of my cycle, because I had dosed so much sodium/calcium carbonates I had precipitate in my tank from the denitrification.
I think I covered most things here... your questions are welcome and I will do my best to answer them!

Where did you get these values from? Can you link to where you found this info?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't think the distinction between alkalinity consumed as bicarbonate vs. carbonate makes any real sense, but conversion of ammonia into nitrate uses alkalinity and O2, and conversion of nitrate back into N2 or organic nitrogen releases that alkalinity again:

Nitrate formation from ammonia:

NH3 + 2O2 --> NO3- + H+ + H2O

It is the H+ that depletes alkalinity

or from organic matter overall:

organic + 175 O2 → 122 CO2 + 16 NO3- + 16 H+ + 138 H2O

Conversion of nitrate back into organic matter is just the reverse of the above.

Conversion of nitrate into N2 is (using glucose as a typical carbon source):

4NO3- + 5/6 C6H12O6 (glucose) + 4H2O --> 2 N2 + 7H2O + 4HCO3- + CO2

 

[Stomkat]

I'm only this far into this thread, but the only thing I can think of that is wrong with this cycling is that the tank would have to continue to be dosed daily with ammonia at an amount that the first fish would be able to produce daily, to keep the bacteria growth to the amount needed to process that amount of ammonia. Or to be safe, a bit more than that.

If you were to cut off the ammonia source until the fish were added, the bacteria would die off, would it not?

If you look at my thread you will understand. I lost close to $1000 of LED's because of a failure of a pump, well it got unplugged and the LED's heated up and fried. So if I were to get fish they would have no light's. Personally I don't want to put fish in a tank that doesn't have lights. Plus when my controller gets here (not ordered yet) I will be unplugging everything and setting it all up. It's cramped around parts of my tank and if something is going to go wrong it will probably be when I'm messing around in those tight spaces. You may say it is silly. But I'm not impatient, It will have been over a year from the concept to creation, and if need be I could wait another year. Also the purpose of making the setup the way I did was for high bioload not a fast cycle... But I posted this because of the fast cycle.
I understand that some people didn't like the way I cycled so I'm starting again.
So if anyone has any ideas or pointers that they think I should follow when I do this. I would like to know. (Please don't just post a generic link about cycling and expect that it relates to this tank, it needs to be about cycling a dry/dead tank... no LR and no sources of Biological decay)

 

[Stomkat]

FWIW, Greenmaster, I do agree with you, in that your tank is ready for fish. Your tests at least to me demonstrate that a few fish could be added. It's is just that I don't believe that adding 30 fish or so at one time, is where there is a lot of questions as to whether your system can handle this. Perhaps it could. Personally I would add them slower to allow time for new bacterial populations to develop, once fish are added, that will break down the dissolved organics added from fish food & fish excrement.

I could have sworn at the beginning I added his DT and refug together, and came up with 400 gallons. If a 25 gallon can handle one fish, I think a 400 gallon can handle 10-30 ... which is what I believe he said he planned to add. If it could process the amount of ammonia those fish would produce in a day, I think the fish would fare well.

 

[thefuz]

An update for me on this: I started the cycle last week using ammonia and Dr. Tim's. I'm guessing I'm on the home stretch but I'm really interested in finding out more about the need and suggested method for dosing carbon to jump-start nitrification. Current params as of last night...

Am: 0 (though I added enough ammonia that should bring it back up to 1ppm last night)
NO2: 5
NO3: 20 (I didn't test last night but that's what it was a couple of nights back)
PH: 8.13
KH: 9

Tested using API reef kits except for pH (APEX has that covered). Starting to notice a few spots of brown diatom growth on the small pieces of seed live rock but not much on the dead rock yet (I ran the lights on a full test run for a few days to measure temp spread - not currently running a chiller - so the algae got a bit of a boost). Coralline is bleaching a bit but I've read that's normal. I'll be sacrificing the coralline on those pieces to the almighty flow once the cycle has ended in an effort to help it spread, so no biggie if it pulls back a little. Didn't think it's a good idea to do it now since toxins are so high still.

Anyway, regarding carbon - does anyone recommend tossing in either vinegar or vodka or should I not do so at this point? If so, how do I figure out dosage? It's not clear from Greenmaster's posts how this was done.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It isn't clear whether nitrifying bacteria in reef tanks use acetate (vinegar) or ethanol (vodka), but they may. So advice for or against doing so if likely just guesswork if increasing nitrifying bacteria is the goal.

 

[Acrotrdco]

Having read the whole thread, and it's been over 3 months since the project started and still without any proven scientific results, I'd like to point the readers to this thread instead, (not wanting to hijack this thread) apparently Dr. Tim's new mixed strand of bacteria can let you cycle your tank in 1-2 days.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18785245

 

[thefuz]

Thanks, Acro (love your LED thread, btw!)! I don't think it's a hijack at all really. More data is more data; especially videos. In my case, I'm starting to think I may have overdosed on ammonia in the beginning (since nitrite reads so blastedly high)... but I'm definitely seeing results after a week. I don't think I'll be adding my fish in just yet as I want to add CUC first for a few weeks to make sure they're not carrying anything unwanted. I'm just not sure if I should add in a full crew at once (more economical) or start slower. A big part of me reaaaaallllyyy wants to do the former!! Either way, when my nitrite dies down to a reasonable level I'm going to place an order for a crew.

For anyone new(er) to the hobby reading this (specifically reefing - not necessarily aquarium keeping); I think you may be better served by taking things slow so you can deal with getting all the other parameters in line and all your hardware set up. Maintaining temp, pH, Alk with regularity is hugely important. Get fundamentals in line so you can worry less about their management later when it comes to digging into the more advanced stuff like Ca, Mg, PO4, etc. Not to say I'm an expert... but just another one of the many advocating patience, research and experimentation. It's the best way to arm yourself for times when Murphy shows up at your door.

 

[Greenmaster]

Thanks, Acro (love your LED thread, btw!)! I don't think it's a hijack at all really. More data is more data; especially videos. In my case, I'm starting to think I may have overdosed on ammonia in the beginning (since nitrite reads so blastedly high)... but I'm definitely seeing results after a week. I don't think I'll be adding my fish in just yet as I want to add CUC first for a few weeks to make sure they're not carrying anything unwanted. I'm just not sure if I should add in a full crew at once (more economical) or start slower. A big part of me reaaaaallllyyy wants to do the former!! Either way, when my nitrite dies down to a reasonable level I'm going to place an order for a crew.

For anyone new(er) to the hobby reading this (specifically reefing - not necessarily aquarium keeping); I think you may be better served by taking things slow so you can deal with getting all the other parameters in line and all your hardware set up. Maintaining temp, pH, Alk with regularity is hugely important. Get fundamentals in line so you can worry less about their management later when it comes to digging into the more advanced stuff like Ca, Mg, PO4, etc. Not to say I'm an expert... but just another one of the many advocating patience, research and experimentation. It's the best way to arm yourself for times when Murphy shows up at your door.

+1

I did this test more to see what my tank could handle for bio load rather then making a map for new people to the hobby to follow. It also shows that if you get the right bacteria then you have a better chance of success when adding large groups of fish, for example I had 4 fish in my tank and then added 24 more... and I will be adding another 33 in a bit, when I add large groups of fish I always add bacteria to make sure there is enough in the tank for the new additions... just so I don't have to worry.

Reply to a previous post. When I added vodka I didn't measure very well... I just kinda put in like 1/2 cup and watched the reaction then added more.