How I got my "DEAD" tank to cycle in 1 week

[Rocdoc]

Now since there are lots of opinions on how I did it wrong, I'm looking on what else you experts would add on a fishless cycle, in order to cycle the tank, and have it ready for fish. I was under the impression that the only thing you needed for a fishless cycle was ammonia.

Glad you asked. Here is what the experts think would work for fishless cycling of a tank: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074

In case the link doesn't work, you can find the thread by going to the "New to the Hobby" forum and click on the "How to Set Up a New Tank" sticky thread.

Hope that helps. :rollface:

 

[Greenmaster]

Glad you asked. Here is what the experts think would work for fishless cycling of a tank: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074

In case the link doesn't work, you can find the thread by going to the "New to the Hobby" forum and click on the "How to Set Up a New Tank" sticky thread.

Hope that helps. :rollface:

It talks about cycling with uncured live rock... not so much dry rock... and the tests it talks about needing to do, the only thing that I couldn't check with my setup was the phosphate, because I didn't add any and it was at 0.
Every thread I have ever read about fishless cycling of a dead tank (aka dry rock) says you need to add ammonia and nothing else.
Now again I ask does anyone know of a good phosphate source that I could buy and add controlled amounts to the tank to ensure that it's taken care of as well?
Or something else that was overlooked or you thought could have been done better?
I really want to do this in a way that most of you agree on so there won't be so much conflict and disregard for numbers.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Greenmaster]

...You have not done this (added fish) you are giving the excuse that your controller is not here is silly...

If you look at my thread you will understand. I lost close to $1000 of LED's because of a failure of a pump, well it got unplugged and the LED's heated up and fried. So if I were to get fish they would have no light's. Personally I don't want to put fish in a tank that doesn't have lights. Plus when my controller gets here (not ordered yet) I will be unplugging everything and setting it all up. It's cramped around parts of my tank and if something is going to go wrong it will probably be when I'm messing around in those tight spaces. You may say it is silly. But I'm not impatient, It will have been over a year from the concept to creation, and if need be I could wait another year. Also the purpose of making the setup the way I did was for high bioload not a fast cycle... But I posted this because of the fast cycle.
I understand that some people didn't like the way I cycled so I'm starting again.
So if anyone has any ideas or pointers that they think I should follow when I do this. I would like to know. (Please don't just post a generic link about cycling and expect that it relates to this tank, it needs to be about cycling a dry/dead tank... no LR and no sources of Biological decay)

 

[one4gatr]

the only thing that I couldn't check with my setup was the phosphate, because I didn't add any and it was at 0.

If you didnt test for phosphates in the first place how are you sure you were at zero to begin with? According to your dead rock DIY you used portland cement in the process right? There is a possibility you could be leaching phosphates and other chemicals from the dead rock (i know you soaked them in salt water for 2 months). Your water source could also contain phosphates as well. My recommendation would be to spend the few bucks and buy the test kit so that your research is complete as possible.

Good Luck,

Mark

 

[HighlandReefer]

Greenmaster,

I don't see any purpose myself in re-doing your experiment, unless you redefine your goals. You have accomplished the very first part that most hobbyists want to achieve before they slowly introduce fish. The word "cycle" you have chosen as a title for this thread is not a term that can be used for a goal in the true sense of the word without properly defining it to accomplish any kind of scientific experiement.

IMO, this article does provide a good explanation of the process and this author has define the word cycle giving it some sense of understanding.

Also, note the importance of organic dissolved carbon being introduced after you have added only ammonia and the tank is able to remove it.


The Nitrogen Cycle: A Nano Reefer's Perspective
http://www.nano-reef.com/articles/?article=17

A few statements taken from this article that may help clear up some definitions:

V. “CYCLING” A NANO: THE BEGINNING OF WASTE MANAGEMENT
I call a cycle complete when NH3 and NO2- fall below the detection limit of my tests irrespective of my NO3 readings, others wait until even NO3- has reached undetectable levels. I prefer not to wait for NO3- to naturally become undetectable because there are only two ways that it can happen: 1) organisms take the NO3- in and use the nitrogen in build their cells/tissues or 2) it is used in denitrification.

VI. NITROGEN CYCLE: DENITRIFICATION (the reefing holy grail or Texas chainsaw massacre?)
Denitrification is the other natural way that NO3- can be removed from aquariums. It is a process that may be slow to get going and not because the bacteria that perform it grow slowly. It may be slow because it takes a time to develop an organic carbon food base. Where your nitrification cycle may be fully operational in as little as one week, denitrification genrally takes 3-6 months at a minimum to get going.


"When a draft of this article was presented to the Nano-Reef.com community for review, questions were raised that required a review and revision of this section (VI). While researching for the revision of this section I had conversations with microbial ecologists and microbiologists regarding the ecology and behavior of denitrifiers. These converstions provided information that is in direct opposition to hobby conventional wisdom. Specifically, that denitrification is likely a feature in every marine aquarium large and small. Our hobby “experts” have always assumed that denitrification requires profound, or at least solid anoxia and to be a significant feature in aquaria. Professional microbial experts disagree. It is more likely that the limitation of denitrification in aquaria is the amount of dissolved organic carbon present in the system."

 

[HighlandReefer]

I'm sorry to say that this thread now, is only hobbyists throwing opinions back and forth without any scientific documentation, simply opinions which serves little purpose IMHO. Hardly something I want to read in the Chemistry Forum.

 

[lisafoster]

I'm sorry to say that this thread now, is only hobbyists throwing opinions back and forth without any scientific documentation, simply opinions which serves little purpose IMHO. Hardly something I want to read in the Chemistry Forum.

Then don't read it.

 

[chimmike]

I'm sorry to say that this thread now, is only hobbyists throwing opinions back and forth without any scientific documentation, simply opinions which serves little purpose IMHO. Hardly something I want to read in the Chemistry Forum.

I'd love to be a chemist, but I'm not. But I also feel I have the right to post in here so long as I am a member not in trouble

Honestly, with all the 'controversy' and arguments going on, this might be a GREAT time for some serious experimentation by some hobbyist professionals.

My argument is this. Say you source some fresh live rock. Cure it in a tub with heater and water, and some dead rock. There will be die-off, no? So that'll create some ammonia. Let it sit a few weeks, denitrification begins to occur as a result of the ammonia, no? Growth of bacteria.

Add this to a tank with dry sand, add some additional ammonia, and a week later you have no ammonia, nitrites or nitrates, who's to say you haven't completed the same 'cycle' that may take others 3-4 weeks? Especially since the information you posted above indicates the true denitrifying cycle takes 3-6 months?

 

[HighlandReefer]

Perhaps my remark above was out of line. For that I apologize.

Everyone has a right to post freely and express their opinions and my remark did not intend to infringe on hobbyists rights in that way.

I think my remark stemmed from frustration more than anything else. Hobbyists in this thread are talking about apples, pears and apricots and their is no set definition of what is to be accomplished before fish can be introduced into a potential reef tank. After the initial goal is reached then the discussion takes on different meaning before other goals can be met in a way to safely introduce more fish and coral which was my intent when I posted the article linked above.

 

[chimmike]

Maybe we can set it as a goal to safely introduce just one fish. And not a cycle fish like a damsel or chromis, but also not a very fragile fish.

You're right. It's best to state the goal first, then base the experimentation around the goal.

Maybe as the first test, do the control. Assume a 4 week cycle. Start with live sand, live rock (uncured), and lights. Daily log the parameters (phosphate, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH) and graph them accordingly at the end of the 4 weeks.

Add ammonia via a shrimp the first day to 'kick start'.

Then try another method to start a tank.

 

[Greenmaster]

I'd love to be a chemist, but I'm not. But I also feel I have the right to post in here so long as I am a member not in trouble

Honestly, with all the 'controversy' and arguments going on, this might be a GREAT time for some serious experimentation by some hobbyist professionals.

My argument is this. Say you source some fresh live rock. Cure it in a tub with heater and water, and some dead rock. There will be die-off, no? So that'll create some ammonia. Let it sit a few weeks, denitrification begins to occur as a result of the ammonia, no? Growth of bacteria.

Add this to a tank with dry sand, add some additional ammonia, and a week later you have no ammonia, nitrites or nitrates, who's to say you haven't completed the same 'cycle' that may take others 3-4 weeks? Especially since the information you posted above indicates the true denitrifying cycle takes 3-6 months?

The difference is, the setup I made can be done from scratch in a week, if you have the skill and knowledge. Minus of course the DIY dry rock, and you used dry rock like macro rocks or something similar.

Denitrification needs a carbon source. That's why some people run "Bio pellet" reactors. They dose carbon and help the denitrification bacteria to grow.

 

[GhostCon1]

The difference is, the setup I made can be done from scratch in a week, if you have the skill and knowledge.

With most new hobbyists having neither.

Also, I don't understand where you are coming from with "everyone getting away from a fishless cycle." I cycled without fish; get some liverock and base rock and let them colonize while you figure out everything you want to get. Using fish to cycle is a cruel method that I thought most of us knew and steered newbies away from already. Nothing in this hobby happens fast, even if bacteria can reproduce rapidly. They reproduce according to available resources.

 

[Greenmaster]

With most new hobbyists having neither.

wow that's quite a statement... I was meaning a bit of DIY skills and information on setting it up properly...

Also, I don't understand where you are coming from with "everyone getting away from a fishless cycle." I cycled without fish; get some liverock and base rock and let them colonize while you figure out everything you want to get. Using fish to cycle is a cruel method that I thought most of us knew and steered newbies away from already. Nothing in this hobby happens fast, even if bacteria can reproduce rapidly. They reproduce according to available resources.

I'm not sure if you are quoting me or not there but I wasn't implicating that people were moving away from fishless cycles... if it was me I probably meant to say "everyone getting away from a cycle with fish" but if I said it the way you quoted, I'm pretty sure that was a mistake on my part.

Another thing I want to clear up here, I have never said a cycle can be considered complete without a test. When ever anyone starts a new tank the first thing they need is a test kit...

 

[chimmike]

The difference is, the setup I made can be done from scratch in a week, if you have the skill and knowledge. Minus of course the DIY dry rock, and you used dry rock like macro rocks or something similar.

Denitrification needs a carbon source. That's why some people run "Bio pellet" reactors. They dose carbon and help the denitrification bacteria to grow.

my understanding, however, is that the biopellet reactors necessitate the use of a skimmer.

 

[bertoni]

Denitrification in the usual sense requires a carbon source, but there might not be any denitrification happening. The nitrogen from the ammonia might be in the tank in the form of protein in various organisms.

 

[HighlandReefer]

Maybe as the first test, do the control. Assume a 4 week cycle. Start with live sand, live rock (uncured), and lights. Daily log the parameters (phosphate, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH) and graph them accordingly at the end of the 4 weeks.

Add ammonia via a shrimp the first day to 'kick start'.

Then try another method to start a tank.

As far as a point to use for when one can start to add a fish or so slowly and give time then for the tank to adapt from there, I disagree with the authors statement from the article I posted above where he states:

"I call a cycle complete when NH3 and NO2- fall below the detection limit of my tests irrespective of my NO3 readings, others wait until even NO3- has reached undetectable levels. I prefer not to wait for NO3- to naturally become undetectable because there are only two ways that it can happen: 1) organisms take the NO3- in and use the nitrogen in build their cells/tissues or 2) it is used in denitrification."

I would like to see his second option occur (my preference) before adding a few fish to see how it goes. That is add sufficient ammonia and some fish food for additional nutrients necessary for bacterial growth (if the tank is sterile without any organic debris on the rock) and make sure the system can process ammonia, nitrite and nitrate properly. Having some extra phosphate present would also be good to make sure the tank can handle the large phosphate load introduced from fish foods. How much ammonia & fish food that would be necessary to establish the process for a given tank water volume, amount of rock and sand, I will let you all fight over. :lol:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then don't read it.

My wife always tells me if you mess with the bull you will get the horns. Sometimes I can't help myself and get a good goring. :lol:

 

[Greenmaster]

my understanding, however, is that the biopellet reactors necessitate the use of a skimmer.

That is to remove the bacteria from the water column, it's a form of nutrient export as well as it helps to prevent bacteria blooms.

Denitrification in the usual sense requires a carbon source, but there might not be any denitrification happening. The nitrogen from the ammonia might be in the tank in the form of protein in various organisms.

That's why I added a carbon source in my cycle.

 

[HighlandReefer]

That's why I added a carbon source in my cycle.

By carbon source are you referring to Nutrafin Cycle? If so, it would be nice to know exactly what they have in this as far as the nutrients needed for bacteria to grow and multiply properly. I'm not saying it isn't there, but would be nice to know. Perhaps they add just ethanol or perhaps vinegar as a carbon source, which does not supply all the needed nutrients for proper bacterial growth. Most fish food will supply the extra nutrients, but you would need to let it break down before skimming it out. A carbon source like vinegar or vodka would help promote larger bacterial populations.

 

[HighlandReefer]

Keep in mind that many bacteria important in a reef tank need pre-formed organic compounds to survive as is noted in article below, in addition to what is found in most synthetic sea salts and by simply adding ammonia and perhaps a simple carbon source like vinegar or vodka. Many bacteria important to a reef systems complete cycling will need amino acids,vitamins....etc to survive. As fish foods are added and fish excrement is added new organic compounds are introduced in large amounts. New bacterial species that need these compounds to survive will start to grow and increase in populations as did the beginning bacteria that could survive without them on the elements found in the synthetic seawater and ammonia alone. The development of the new species of bacteria that act on the dissolved organic compounds like vitamins, amino acids....etc are very important in a reef tank. Skimmers will not remove these dissolved organic compound to much extent according to the little scientific research we have on this subject. Sure GAC may remove some, but how much and what kind is basically unknown. This aspect of a reef tank cycle is just as important as the simple beginning ammonia cycle. Certainly other microbes like algae, cyano, diatoms....etc are an important factor here as well and their population need to develop too.

Nutrition and Cultivation of Bacteria
http://www.jlindquist.net/generalmicro/102bactnut.html

From it:

"To a greater or lesser degree, various organisms may require pre-formed organic compounds which these organisms are incapable of synthesizing. Depending on a particular organism's capabilities of producing the essential organic compounds it needs for structure or metabolism, certain amino acids, fatty acids, nucleic acids, vitamins or other compounds may have to be supplied to that organism. A growth factor is therefore defined as a specific organic compound that is required – generally in a very small amount – by a particular organism as it cannot be synthesized by that organism. Organisms termed fastidious tend to require a variety of growth factors."

 

[Greenmaster]

By carbon source are you referring to Nutrafin Cycle? If so, it would be nice to know exactly what they have in this as far as the nutrients needed for bacteria to grow and multiply properly. I'm not saying it isn't there, but would be nice to know. Perhaps they add just ethanol or perhaps vinegar as a carbon source, which does not supply all the needed nutrients for proper bacterial growth. Most fish food will supply the extra nutrients, but you would need to let it break down before skimming it out. A carbon source like vinegar or vodka would help promote larger bacterial populations.

I'm starting to get the feeling like most of the people who have been arguing with me haven't read the initial post... I used an alcohol... Feb 9th at 11:30 pm... when my nitrates got to 40-50...