How long do i have to wait!

[wooden_reefer]

"As I said, adding an extremely large fish into an established tank with only a few small fish is even more challenging. But it can be done with confidence. There will be no mini-cycling if it is done right."

There is an extra twist in a case like this. This is a more difficult situation because you have to care about the small number of existing fish. But still there is a way to accomplish this task without mini-cycling. As I said, if you find the way you have really mastered both the science and practical application of nitrification.

Mini-cycling is a joke from the past era of ignorance.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15738523#post15738523 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtrasap
An extremely large fish should be introduced to an extremely large tank.

Such a tank that could support the bio-load of an extremely large fish.

A tank with a large enough volume to dilute the waste produced by the fish, to levels that are not toxic to the fish in question.

We are talking about eight fish being added to a relatively small (120 gallon) aquarium.

The eight fish in question would easily have a greater bio-load than a ten inch angel.


I listed plenty of resources supporting my position.


Would you kindly do the same?

Step by step how would you do so?

Dilution of waste? Yes, this might work if you have a tank the size of a swimming pool.

Are you saying that you can simply put this extremely large fish in a 500 gal tank in order to dilute the waste and you are much better than putting it in 220 gals?

The result would be that it would die one day later than sooner.

 

[Toddrtrex]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15738575#post15738575 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer


I am sorry, I am begining to sense that you are actually clueless.

I am beginning to think that you should read the [ua] and try to make posts without personal attacks, and this isn't the first time you have had to be warned about your posting style.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15738593#post15738593 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Toddrtrex
I am beginning to think that you should read the <a href=http://reefcentral.com/agreement.php target=_blank>User Agreement</a> and try to make posts without personal attacks, and this isn't the first time you have had to be warned about your posting style.

I have deleted the line.

What do you think of the "procedure" given?

Practically, what volume of water would make the ammonia released by a ten-inch fish non-toxic to the fish?

 

[Toddrtrex]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15738633#post15738633 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer
I have deleted the line.

What do you think of the "procedure" given?

Practically, what volume of water would make the ammonia released by a ten-inch fish non-toxic to the fish?

I have already told you that I see no point in trying to have a "discussion" with you. There is only one correct way -- your way.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15738523#post15738523 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtrasap
An extremely large fish should be introduced to an extremely large tank.

Such a tank that could support the bio-load of an extremely large fish.

A tank with a large enough volume to dilute the waste produced by the fish, to levels that are not toxic to the fish in question.

We are talking about eight fish being added to a relatively small (120 gallon) aquarium.

The eight fish in question would easily have a greater bio-load than a ten inch angel.

The source is the brain!

From what you have stated you have not stated how to prepare a ten-inch fish for a new tank.

Do you think it can be done nonetheless? Yes or no?

Someone's ten-inch fish has outgrown its tank and the owner is giving it to you. It is your dream fish, gorgeous and you want it. Can you prepare to keep it in a new tank?

---------------------------

Also, it depends on how large the eight fish are. In general, the mass of a fish increases greatly as the length increases.

Are you then saying that it is not possible to cycle for a QT to house all eight fish now so that this is no ammonia, no mini-cycling? I tell you now that it can be done, with the greatest ease. Cycling for QT robustly is specially easy. There will be no mini-cycling, zero ammonia and nitrite, with all eight fish at once. 100% sure.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15738642#post15738642 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Toddrtrex
There is only one correct way -- your way.

Where did you get this idea? I did not say that.

I said that mini-cycling can be avoided. Emphatically. More fish are lost to this myth than most other reasons. I am saying that even low levels of ammonia is very bad for fish.

If you are very experienced and you still insist on stocking fish slowly, I do not object. Just not mini-cycling. You can always boost the nitrification piecemeal even much after initial cycling.

 

[wooden_reefer]

You don't need any source. Just think about this simple logic.

The obvious fact is that it is not possible to stock an extremely large fish gradually. One cannot disagree with this fact.

So the question is whether you can house an extremely large fish in a new tank and have no ammonia problem.

If the answer is yes, then there cannot be mini-cycling or any cycling. This extremely large fish will simply die from ammonia.

If the answer is yes, then the assertion of the need to stock slowly due to limited nitrification is totally repudiated.

Simple, not hard at all.

 

[jtrasap]

Any knowledgeable person would not add an extremely large fish to a 120 gallon tank.



Technically, our tanks have a constantly running cycle. What we call, "cycling", is nothing more than the process of starting the nitrification cycle in our tanks. It's the process of introducing an ammonia source, in order to attract nitrating bacteria in order to jump start the nitrification cycle. Obviously, if more ammonia is introduced to the system, there will need to be a stronger population of nitrifying bacteria to break down the larger amount of ammonia.

Cycling, as we use the term in this hobby, is nothing more than bringing the bacteria up to a level that can remove the introduced waste. When you add a fish, you introduce more waste.

If you look at it in reverse, the bacterial population will grow to a level which can be supported by the available food for them. If more food is introduced, via waste, the bacterial population will increase again, to a level which can be supported.


A large bio-load will obviously be diluted to a less toxic level, exponentially with increase in tank volume.

 

[sam11909]

Has anyone noticed that the original poster hasn't posted once since the beggining. maybe he's scared off?:fun5:

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15738994#post15738994 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtrasap

Technically, our tanks have a constantly running cycle. What we call, "cycling", is nothing more than the process of starting the nitrification cycle in our tanks. It's the process of introducing an ammonia source, in order to attract nitrating bacteria in order to jump start the nitrification cycle. Obviously, if more ammonia is introduced to the system, there will need to be a stronger population of nitrifying bacteria to break down the larger amount of ammonia.

Cycling, as we use the term in this hobby, is nothing more than bringing the bacteria up to a level that can remove the introduced waste. When you add a fish, you introduce more waste.

If you look at it in reverse, the bacterial population will grow to a level which can be supported by the available food for them. If more food is introduced, via waste, the bacterial population will increase again, to a level which can be supported.


A large bio-load will obviously be diluted to a less toxic level, exponentially with increase in tank volume.

You said it well except for the last sentence.

Are you saying that it is possible to place an extremely large fish into a new tank of adequate size, say 220gal, 330 gals etc and still have no problem with ammonia? It is not a miracle that we see ten-inch fish in many 220's. There is still no ammonia.

If you consider the mass of an extremely large fish, you will discover that it outweights many many small fish. This is by volume. A extremely large fish is large in all three dimensions. A ten inch angel fish easily has ten or more times the weight of a four inch angel fish.

To disprove the idea of mini-cycling, all it takes is for you to say that it is possible to house a ten inch fish in a new 220 gal tank and still have no ammonia. 220 gal tank still will suffice in terms of nitrification.

And, (your last sentence) the dilution of ammonia in a 220 vs 330 is not a factor at all. Virtual zero is virtual zero, no matter division by 220 or by 330. Water volume and hence chemical dilution is not a factor in an established stable tank. This is not a factor. The essense is in the filtration medium and all in preparation. If you prepare, there will no no no mini-cycling.

In fact, at the end of a robust cycle for such a new tank, the filter medium would likely handle the waste from two, three, four, five such ten inch fish. It is very easy to make sure that this is so. The nitrification capacity would then DECLINE with the months to come.

 

[sam11909]

wow, are we still answering the question?

 

[sam11909]

To answer the original question, take it slow and keep a good check on your nitrates, don't add things too fast in the beggining, and make sure your nitrates get lower before adding coral (preferably 0). When you do add coral pick the easier types like mushrooms, zoanthids, or xenia and then you can move on to the harder types like sps.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15739040#post15739040 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sam11909
Has anyone noticed that the original poster hasn't posted once since the beggining. maybe he's scared off?:fun5:

Yes, the only think I suggest is that it is best to cycle for a QT to house the eight fish he has now.

Hard to accept but an ich outbreak may be on the way if he adds invertebrates without QT to a tank with fish. It seems some still cannot accept the ich is a major threat from more than one source.

More frustrated than scared I think. I did say that he may not want to hear about potential ich outbreak. It is very real in this situation.

At least he should know that it is possible to cycle for a QT for all eight fish at once easily, no mini-cycling. He can then QT the corals that he buys.

This is actually a case in point. If he still believes in the voodoo that mini-cycling is unavoidable, he may not be aware of the option to set up a QT for all his fish now. This is what I will do if I were him. Ich outbreak with eight fish is very scary.

 

[wooden_reefer]

The voodoo that mini-cycling is unavoidable robs the aquarists of a needed option in this case, and in many cases.

Indeed, the best solution to an existing ich outbreak problem involves quickly setting up and cycling for a QT for ALL the fish, at once, and isolation and treat for eight or more weeks.

If mini-cycling were unavoidable, this would be less sound an option.

It is not, and this is a sound option, if only there is time.

 

[IridescentLily]

*snort*


1. Where the blazes is the OP? Perhaps she ran away screaming.

2. Todd is always right.


Thank you. Thank you very much.

 

[Michael]

i thought we dealt with this yesterday, and yet you are still going on about it, everything that has been needed to be said has been said,theres nothing else to say, give it a rest and lets move on.

 

[Michael]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15738648#post15738648 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer

From what you have stated you have not stated how to prepare a ten-inch fish for a new tank.
Someone's ten-inch fish has outgrown its tank and the owner is giving it to you. It is your dream fish, gorgeous and you want it. Can you prepare to keep it in a new tank?

:lol:

 

[jtrasap]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15738648#post15738648 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wooden_reefer

From what you have stated you have not stated

Do I detect an oxymoron?......

 

[HUNTINREDNECK]

cool