How long do i have to wait!

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15738994#post15738994 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtrasap
Cycling, as we use the term in this hobby, is nothing more than bringing the bacteria up to a level that can remove the introduced waste. When you add a fish, you introduce more waste.

A large bio-load will obviously be diluted to a less toxic level, exponentially with increase in tank volume.

I don't think I should let this slide. This is important understanding on the science of nitrification.

What you are describing is true during cycling, not after cycling.

During cycling, the volume of the water dilutes ammonia and nitrite toxic to fish.

After cycling, ammonia and nitrite are both transcient chemical species in a tank. Their concentration should be virtual zero. The difference between dividing by 220 or 330 or 440 is still the same, near zero. If you need the volume dilution to ease the toxicity of ammonia and nitrite to fish, your tank is not cycled and the fish are in serious trouble. 550, 660 gals makes little difference. The nitrification capacity is all in the substrate. The amount, type of filter medium, the setup, and for a while the history and method of cycling, are what determine nitrification capacity and effectiveness, not the physical volume of a tank. Large fish need large tank, for the most part, for swimming room, not greater nitrification that comes with a larger tank.

Say if one uses damsels to cycle a tank (damsel in distress), the damsels will experience what you have described during cycling.

One does not need damsels to cycle a tank. You can just use artificial ammonia source and bacteria seed. Seed and waste method of cycling.

A cycle can be a weak one or a robust one. If at the end of the cycle the nitrification bacteria population is still low, the cycle is weak. Say if there has been one brief ammonia concentration of 0.5 ppm during the whole cycle, there will still be a cycle but a weak one.

If you provide high enough sources of ammonia and multiple times, say 3-5 ppm 3-5 times during the cycle, you will have a robust cycle resulting in very high nitrification bacteria population, which will be enough for all of most conceivable bioload all at once right after cycling. The bacteria population will likely decline in the months to come due to low bioload.

The seed and waste method of cycling is not to speed up any cycle but to make sure that after cycling the bacteria population is very high. Actually this method may well take a week or so longer for high ammonia and nitrite to drop to zero.

And, nitrification bacteria do not die quickly for lack of ammonia and nitrite. It takes weeks of no ammonia or nitrite for the such bacteria popluation to decline. The aquarist can take advantage of this fact.

Mini-cycling weeks after cycling is 100% preventable. One just has to make sure that one aims for a robust cycle.

Also, mini-cycling is also avoidable even a year or two after cycling. All one has to do is to prepare robustly cycled medium in advance of introduction of much greater bioload, and then add such mature filter material to the tank just before introduction of much higher bioload, best in the sump with return water dripping on such medium.

Mini-cycling is 100 percent avoiding in DT and almost 100% avoidable in QT (except when you have to use a drug that depresses nitrification).

In order to master practical application of nitrification, one has to really know the science well first.

I think the voodoo that mini-cycling is unavoidable is the legacy from "damsel in distress" cycling. Otherswise, how could such appalling myth continue?

 

[jtrasap]

Not to say that you're incorrect, but without something more than just the word of some guy, I would place my trust in the numerous resources that I listed on the previous page.

Instead of just spouting stuff out, give us some info to support your reasoning.

Here is a repeat of my previous post, which has links to different sources, which support what I have stated. I could easily find more.



Here's a little info directly from the RC faq section. This information pertains directly to Marina's situation.

"You can add fish or corals once the tank is cycled. It is important to start off slowly, since your tank will experience a mini cycle each time you add more livestock. Test often during this period to make sure you are not exceeding your tank's nutrient export mechanisms. Additionally, many corals require established tanks to do well and you may need to wait longer in order for that to happen. This is also true with clams."

http://www.reefcentral.com/FAQ/general/index.php


Also, here's a bunch more info from various sites which support what I've repeatedly stated regarding bacterial population in correlation to bio-load.

Much of it may be removed, as I'm not sure on RC's policy in regards to links to other sites.

"Remember, add livestock slowly as livestock creates waste which creates ammonia. You have to allow bacteria to catch up and multiply to keep your system balanced."

http://www.vividaquariums.com/NanoCycling.asp


"be sure to stock your aquarium gradually to allow the biological filtration to catch up to the new aquarium inhabitants."

http://www.liveaquaria.com/PIC/article.cfm?aid=129


"So, think about this for a moment... the more fish you add, the more ammonia is produced, that makes sense, right? So, wouldn't it seem reasonable to start with just a couple of fish? Problem shouldn't be as bad then should it? And it will give mother nature the time she needs to get her tank housekeepers on duty."

http://www.kushaiah.com/fish/underw...chool/think.htm

"Only add one or two saltwater fish at a time. Only adding a couple saltwater fish at a time gives your filtration system the time needed to take on the increased biological load that the new fish introduce."

http://www.fishlore.com/SaltwaterAquariumSetup.htm

"The ammonia levels rise when you add something to the tank. That is why you add things slowly and wait for everything to stabilize before you add more."

http://www.reeftime.com/reef-articl...k-safely/34.htm

"Above all, add the livestock slowly and with ultimate regard for its needs."

http://www.reefs.org/library/newbieguide.html

 

[Michael]

wooden_reefer is basically saying we should ensure our aquarium has suficient bacteria colonies already in place for our intended livestock, and if we have the cycled media which is teeming with the correct type and amount of bacteria then he sees no reason why all our intended live stock can't be added at once.

ok in theory he has a point, however its not very practicable imo, and unless you have other media available to combat any potential problem then stocking steadily is sensible, its obvious any addition to the aquarium will enevitably add stress to the colonies, and they will need a little time to cope with the extra waste, unless of course you add the extra bacteria into place before adding the new livestock.

fww jason i dont think adding all at once is good practise for anyone other than very experienced reefers due to water quality problems.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15748800#post15748800 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Michael
ok in theory he has a point, however its not very practicable imo, and unless you have other media available to combat any potential problem then stocking steadily is sensible, its obvious any addition to the aquarium will enevitably add stress to the colonies, and they will need a little time to cope with the extra waste, unless of course you add the extra bacteria into place before adding the new livestock.

Indeed it is very very very practical. In fact, cycling is basically extremely easy.

All you have to do is to have a plastic container and a powerhaed and a hose. In the seed and waste method, both are cheap and free.

All the nitrification capacity is in the filter medium. All you need is a few gals of water and make sure that this medium is very active during stocking of fish.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15748739#post15748739 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jtrasap
Not to say that you're incorrect, but without something more than just the word of some guy, I would place my trust in the numerous resources that I listed on the previous page.

Instead of just spouting stuff out, give us some info to support your reasoning.

Here is a repeat of my previous post, which has links to different sources, which support what I have stated. I could easily find more.



Here's a little info directly from the RC faq section. This information pertains directly to Marina's situation.

"You can add fish or corals once the tank is cycled. It is important to start off slowly, since your tank will experience a mini cycle each time you add more livestock. Test often during this period to make sure you are not exceeding your tank's nutrient export mechanisms. Additionally, many corals require established tanks to do well and you may need to wait longer in order for that to happen. This is also true with clams."

http://www.reefcentral.com/FAQ/general/index.php


Also, here's a bunch more info from various sites which support what I've repeatedly stated regarding bacterial population in correlation to bio-load.

Much of it may be removed, as I'm not sure on RC's policy in regards to links to other sites.

"Remember, add livestock slowly as livestock creates waste which creates ammonia. You have to allow bacteria to catch up and multiply to keep your system balanced."

http://www.vividaquariums.com/NanoCycling.asp


"be sure to stock your aquarium gradually to allow the biological filtration to catch up to the new aquarium inhabitants."

http://www.liveaquaria.com/PIC/article.cfm?aid=129


"So, think about this for a moment... the more fish you add, the more ammonia is produced, that makes sense, right? So, wouldn't it seem reasonable to start with just a couple of fish? Problem shouldn't be as bad then should it? And it will give mother nature the time she needs to get her tank housekeepers on duty."

http://www.kushaiah.com/fish/underw...chool/think.htm

"Only add one or two saltwater fish at a time. Only adding a couple saltwater fish at a time gives your filtration system the time needed to take on the increased biological load that the new fish introduce."

http://www.fishlore.com/SaltwaterAquariumSetup.htm

"The ammonia levels rise when you add something to the tank. That is why you add things slowly and wait for everything to stabilize before you add more."

http://www.reeftime.com/reef-articl...k-safely/34.htm

"Above all, add the livestock slowly and with ultimate regard for its needs."

http://www.reefs.org/library/newbieguide.html

I hope you don't take it wrongly, but your explanation showed that perhaps you do not know even just the science of nitrification very well.

Most experienced aquarists should know that after cycling both ammonia and nitrite should be virtually zero. So your idea that after cycling the volume of water dilutes ammonia and nitrite and reduce toxicity to fish is really surprising from someone who is experienced enough to have a strong opinion.

Don't trust everything you read. Often, it is not that the person who opine is not experienced, but his experience may be dated.

It is true that sudden addition of bioload will always result in mini-cycling, but only if unaided. The modern aquarist can aid the process so that there will be NO mini-cycling. This is very very easy to do, and also very very important if your interest includes fish, a lot of fish. Ammonia, even low levels, is very toxic to fish so you should avoid it. For a reef tank with just a few small fish, you can be casual about nitrification, but not for a tank with a lot of fish.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I have said this many times before.

Rapid stocking is for the very experienced only.

I think the strongest reason is that a newbie lacks the skills to combat fish diseases. You can have other reasons.

But it is not for the reason that mini-cycling is unavoidable, not since the 1990's, not in 2009.

I always stock fish quickly. The advantages of stocking quickly are very major.

Ease of QT and reduction of incompatability are very major benefits.

Not recommened for newbies.

 

[jason2459]

Maybe these discussions should be in the advanced topics section so as to not confuse us n00bs.

 

[jtrasap]

Instead of just stating your opinions. Why not state why you think this way, and give some data to back it up. I posted plenty of support for my thinking.


PS: please stop rewording what I have said.


Do you know why water is referred to as "the universal solvent"?

 

[jason2459]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15749023#post15749023 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jason2459
Maybe these discussions should be in the advanced topics section so as to not confuse us n00bs.

edit: Wow, crazy I thought I was in another thread. There's like 3 or 4 of these exact same discussions going on at the same time in different threads.

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15749023#post15749023 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jason2459
Maybe these discussions should be in the advanced topics section so as to not confuse us n00bs.

I beg to differ.

The voodoo that mini-cycling is unavoidable affects profoundly the growth in skill of the newbie.

Nitrification is basically a very simple topic and also a very essential one. The newbie can and should master both the science and practical application of nitrification very well. More so for those who like fish, many fish.

 

[jtrasap]

Let's continue this discussion here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1711227

I'm interested in hearing your thinking behind your idea, and the opinions of other experienced reefers, so, I started a new thread which actually pertains to this topic.

 

[wooden_reefer]

How does this confuse the newbies?

You should stock livestock slowly mostly because you have not acquired the skills to combat fish diseases.

Not very clear still?

If I imply anything, it is that disease control is a very major part of keeping a lot of fish. This is true. A newbie better acquire skills in disease control.

Mini-cycling is preventable and should be prevented because ammonia is very toxic to fish. This is also true.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I am done with this thread after this.

Only one last thing directed to the starter of this thread.

I suggest that you start cycle for QT to house the eight fish that you have now.

Use the seed and waste method to cycle for the QT. You WILL have enough nitrification bacteria for all eight of your fish at once. There will NOT be mini- or whatever cycling. There will be no ammonia if you use copper or hypo.

An ich outbreak should be you greatest concern now.

I don't know how you added the eight fish you have now. Did your QT them?

If you are going to add corals now, and if you have not QT the corals (fishless for eight weeks) and then add it to your DT with all the fish, the chance that you will eventually have an ich outbreak is high.