how to determine "lineage" of a coral frag?

I guess my whole point is asking is because I notice that often, when a "tyree" frag sells on ebay or somewhere, people want to be sure they are getting the "tyree" (or whatever it may be) frag that they are spending so much $ for. When these people ask for the lineage, what are they getting as a response? Is it just a list of a bunch of people that the frag came from that ultimatly rooted back to Tyree? Couldn't anyone make up a list like this? Is it really proof?
Greg
 
Is it really proof? Of course not. It's based on the honor system, but someone's word is only as good as the person it came from. Personally, when asked, I put in writing what the lineage is for all my pieces, and encourage them to check if they have any doubts.

I also let people know ahead of time that if they sold me a 'fake', I'll bad mouth them all over the boards:lol:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11661298#post11661298 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
Ok, how do we regulate the lineages? The Pm I have, how do you know where it came from adie from my word of mouth?

Kip's post was great, I agree totally and in general I don't buy wild corals. There is less mystery (but perhaps thats the fun for some), but I get to know exactly what the coral is capable of and compare its health/growth with other people that have genetically identical corals here on RC. I like to think of it as extreme domestication, but it does minimize ecological impact.

But as for regulating lineages, I've found that it helps to know trustworthy people that are well known since they usually have a direct link (or are) the first owners of the corals. It's kind of the Kevin Bacon 6 degrees of separation deal. However for LE's I prefer 3 and under. That's the only way you can really be sure. I can trace all of my corals in my tank (minus any hitchhikers).
 
It depends on the person being honest. I buy and have bought many, many LE's. Some people you can by from and know they are the real deal, and if you establish a good relationship with the seller, they'll always take care of you. But from my experience, the more inexpensive LE's usually aren't the real deal, just someone who got luck and found something pretty close that they could photoshop to sell you, and then tell you it just looks different under your lights and/or tank conditions. Look at my avatar, I know it's the real deal because of who I bought it from and how much it cost, along with a great many other frags which are now colonies from the same individual.

I also have some wild caught stuff that is super awesome, but with the LE craz just being too crazy, I just think a person needs to budget what they want. Do you want a $150 micro frag, which is nice, or a few pretty nice colonies for the same money. Sometimes I wish I could go back and kick my own butt, but then I just make a frag or 2 and sell them, and I feel better.

If a person wants to drop big cash on LE frags and wants someone to prove where it came from, it's kinda hard sometimes. Look at the Aussie Acan's. Sure, some of them are legit aussie's, but how many of them are just being passed off as that when they aren't. I don't really think it truely matters as long as it's something you want to see in your reef at home and you have the budget to do it.
 
seems the closer to california your frag source, the more likely it is "the real deal"

a lot of times you can get the coral, let it grow a bit, and know for yourself if it is "the real deal"

and if it aint... like urnace said... then you badmouth the seller/trader all over the net so they dont pull that crap on anyone else.
 
I think it is important to know or ask the lineage of something, simply because maybe the wild counterpart is not as colorful or hardy as the "LE".. by getting the strain from the "LE" and it's decendents you have something to refer to and compare to seev if it's doing well or not.

I am cool with people who are up front and tell me they don't know the lineage.. probably means it's a wild one... and if there is room why not grow them and see what happens.. If someone try to pass them on as the named ones, especially for profit, that's not good. If it's a truly a beautiful frag then you probably already have an idea how much you want to pay for it, LE or not..
 
I don't anyone is really considering this point though- every suggestion, as noble and well intentioned as they are, relies COMPLETELY on people being honest. The "proof in writing" means nothing because it isn't regulated. There are some very well respected reefers (by myself, as well as many others)commenting on this thread. If I get a piece of paper from vendor X stating the coral came from Tyree, what does that mean? What do I/can I do if I doesn't think its correct? Who does anyone believe? Its not as if these "documents" are monitored, validates, or agreed upon by any sanctioning group, so they, in effect, because as valuable only as the paper they are printed on.

I happen to work with captive wildlife quite a bit. In the zoological community, species which are rare, endangered, or limited populations usually have a voluntary managing authority which demonstrates the lineages- exactly as we are discussing here. These SSP (species survival plans), PMP (population management programs), SMP (species management programs), or studbooks keeps detailed and accurate record of the origin of every species within the participating group. For many species (namely SSP), every captive animal in North America, and quite possibly even the civilized world, is noted and "controlled" by this group. This is done for a number of reasons, namely controlling breeding to reduce inbreeding and the subsequent negative effects, but it more or less is exactly what is being mentioned here for corals. However, this system is only as valid and useful as the members which participate in it. Every year, the participating organizations update the inventory, and an assigned voluntary group assesses the population, based on their lineage and history. I am getting a little carried away here, but to make my point, a tremendous deal or organization, cooperation, honesty, and legitimacy, play into this being functional. Trying to do so in a blatantly profit driven system is quite problematic. Heck, look at many of the fashionista clowns that are available today by a very high name captive breeder (I will not name names). These are created by inbreeding selected traits, often of which undesirable, unhealthy, and inviable mutations. But two hunchbacked fish may make a batch that could be should as "quasimoto clowns" for a ridiculous premium. Would people still buy these fish is they knew that it was created with mother breeding son, or sister and brother?

Please understand, I wholeheartedly agree that there should be some registry to regulate the unscrupulous and illegitimate trade which seems to periodically plague this hobby. However, without the coordination and cooperation of everybody in some grand organization, I don't see this as possible. It can, and has been done. Look at MAC certification in collection nowadays,this is exactly the steps towards what we are talking about.
 
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I didn't read the thread - but I'd want to see receipts all the way back to the exporter with photographs at each step =) (or back to Tyree)

I wouldn't trust importer/lfs receipts

Indonesia
Acan

Aussie
Acan

USA importer
Tuesday receives both and puts them next to each other in the "acan" tank. Their listed on lists to LFS's as "acan colony" and when someone places an order, they just grab an acan out of the tank. Well, that's how it works 90% of the time I'd say. Some assie shipments might get better segregation treatment - but who knows.
 
Don't all corals initially come from the wild, even Tyree corals. What does he do different than other collectors of wild corals to make them special? I have several pieces I have acquired that I have gotten lineage traced back 2 generations. I have kept a spreadsheet, but some of the same corals look different in different peoples tanks so is there really a way to be sure even after growing it out?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11794091#post11794091 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by meemmoo
Don't all corals initially come from the wild, even Tyree corals. What does he do different than other collectors of wild corals to make them special?

Nothing. But a coral that has been in captivity for several generations has proven its ability to maintain its coloration in a variety of conditions. Also has proven its durability and resilience to captive conditions with less likelihood of tissue necrosis.

For every coral that Tyree picked up that became an LE, there are many others that didn't make it.
 
So would it be right in assuming the more tanks a coral goes through and the more generations there are of that particular coral the higher the quality of the coral? Sorry if I'm going off topic just trying to understand. It seems that the more people a coral gets passed through the better the coral would be so trying to trace lineage would be difficult.
 
yep... kinda like getting a yellow/green slimer now... it could easily be 20-30th generation captive prop'd by now... and would probably be almost bulletproof

but tracing it back to the original would be exteremely difficult

i remember when the slimer was kind of an "LE" when it first made it on the scenes... now huge frags go for $5-10 in some areas where the market is flooded

that is the cool thing about a lot of "LEs"... the more people that get them, the more they are fragged... the cheaper they get.... but if you want pedigree papers, it aint gonna happen

an exception to this i have seen over the years is the purple monster... and i think its just a function of how slow it grows. the oregon blue tort used to be the same way... but i've seen those prices going down.
 
The last thing sps'ers would want to do is to create a 'hot market' for certain strains [cf. zoas]...
BUT...in our area, Spokane, there are a few locally famous pieces that it's cool to have a bit of. And if passing on or selling any frag of that frag, I'd sure make a point to tell them its history.
I think that would be a great thing for a club to do: create a 'pedigree book' to track who got what, how it grew, where it went, etc.
 
by Sk8r
The last thing sps'ers would want to do is to create a 'hot market' for certain strains [cf. zoas]...

i'm so thankful that sps keeping is nothing like lps or zoas. i know it's not nice to say, but i think the challenge of sps is difficult enough to keep out of most peoples hands, which in turn, makes it less likely we'll have to deal with unsavory vendors, hobbiests, and a trendy market.

people believe sps keepers have an elitist mindset, but it's really just a byproduct of our determination to meet the challenge of sps care.
 
I wondered about proving 'lineage' too. Locally, there are several people that are fragging out LE corals. I asked about proof of the lineage and most were offended that I questioned their word. The fact is, that I was not questioning them. I truely believe they are what these people claimed. I was just trying to look out for myself in the event I would start selling frags myself. People may or may not believe me.

I could send them back to the person I got it from, but then I would risk the potential buyer getting it from the person I got it from rather than me.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11796053#post11796053 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carb850
I wondered about proving 'lineage' too. Locally, there are several people that are fragging out LE corals. I asked about proof of the lineage and most were offended that I questioned their word. The fact is, that I was not questioning them. I truely believe they are what these people claimed. I was just trying to look out for myself in the event I would start selling frags myself. People may or may not believe me.

I could send them back to the person I got it from, but then I would risk the potential buyer getting it from the person I got it from rather than me.

Maybe try to ask politely next time it seems to help.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11796053#post11796053 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carb850
I wondered about proving 'lineage' too. Locally, there are several people that are fragging out LE corals. I asked about proof of the lineage and most were offended that I questioned their word. The fact is, that I was not questioning them. I truely believe they are what these people claimed. I was just trying to look out for myself in the event I would start selling frags myself. People may or may not believe me.

I could send them back to the person I got it from, but then I would risk the potential buyer getting it from the person I got it from rather than me.

This is entirely the point. Why should anyone believe you, or the person you bought it from, etc? What good does a piece of paper that says it is "official" mean? Who issues this? Why can't anyone just say, "yeah, I got a frag from Tyree in '98"? There is no way to verify any of this really. And to be honest, with the sole purpose of marketing, who cares?

Unfortunately, this hobby has turned into a cut throat market for "designer" animals based solely on status and exclusivity. We can attack zoa and LPS keepers all we want, but we are just as bad as they. How many SPS varieties can you think of that bear the name "tyree" or "LE" or similar? I can think of quite a few. And what is the premise of these designations? Price. The same happens with zaos, LPS, heck even fish. Try to get your hand s on a pair of ORA "picasso" clowns. These are likely just genetically inbred anomolous colorations which have no exceptional benefit over a normal captive bred clown (and can arguable have a worse fitness), but are three times the price easy, and are at a ruidiculous demand.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11796115#post11796115 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
What good does a piece of paper that says it is "official" mean? Who issues this? Why can't anyone just say, "yeah, I got a frag from Tyree in '98"? There is no way to verify any of this really. And to be honest, with the sole purpose of marketing, who cares?

I'm not sure what your are getting at other than basically saying that there is no way to be 100% sure so we shouldn't buy LE corals and instead just purchase whatever wild corals happen to be in at our LFS? Are you suggesting a suitable method to determine lineage?

Several posters in this thread have shared their reasons for preferring a specific strain of captive coral opposed to a general species. Not everyone shares these preferrences and obviously those that do not will be buying the cheaper wild caught or maricultured SPS colonys and not the high end frags.

There are very few things in life that are 100%. No employer knows 100% what they are getting when they hire someone, but they take an educated risk. I feel like I'm making a similar educated risk when purchasing an LE frag. I take into account things like who the seller is, what the picture of the mother colony and frag looks like, where the seller claims to have obtained it from and what the history is.
 
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