how to determine "lineage" of a coral frag?

[Kip]

you cant take marketing out of our hobby... would be like trying to take it out of society in general

you have people that buy porsches and people that buy fords (i've owned both so dont give me any crap ...

... sure both will get you to a destination, but the porsche sure was a helluvalot more fun

like everything else in the hobby.. its all about preference and what you are willing to pay for "premium quality"

 

[StrategicReef]

what SPS keepers are willing to pay drives the prices, but at the current market prices of some of the frags..

I think it warrants a little motive to at least try to investigate the lineage of what you are buying..

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11796449#post11796449 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by deklin
I'm not sure what your are getting at other than basically saying that there is no way to be 100% sure so we shouldn't buy LE corals and instead just purchase whatever wild corals happen to be in at our LFS? Are you suggesting a suitable method to determine lineage?

Several posters in this thread have shared their reasons for preferring a specific strain of captive coral opposed to a general species. Not everyone shares these preferrences and obviously those that do not will be buying the cheaper wild caught or maricultured SPS colonys and not the high end frags.

There are very few things in life that are 100%. No employer knows 100% what they are getting when they hire someone, but they take an educated risk. I feel like I'm making a similar educated risk when purchasing an LE frag. I take into account things like who the seller is, what the picture of the mother colony and frag looks like, where the seller claims to have obtained it from and what the history is.

Please dont make the mistake of confusing my argument as that I am anti-captive bred. That is not it at all. I am simply stating that since there is no conformity AT ALL to documnetation or record keeping, that any attempts to do so are rather futile. If you insist on wanting to buy a frag of a specific corla from a specific purpose (for whatever reason), the only way you will be assured to do so is by buying directly from that person. All other ways are rather imprecise, unverifiable, and subject to corruption due to $$ in peoples eyes. Unfortunately, that is the truth.

the only way that lineage records will work is if there is an accepted organization which will monitor, validate, publicize, and enforce the detrminations. Otherwise, it is all speculation.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11796650#post11796650 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kip
you cant take marketing out of our hobby... would be like trying to take it out of society in general

you have people that buy porsches and people that buy fords (i've owned both so dont give me any crap ...

... sure both will get you to a destination, but the porsche sure was a helluvalot more fun

like everything else in the hobby.. its all about preference and what you are willing to pay for "premium quality"

Yes, but the issue here is, how do you know that Porsche isnt really a "Persche"?! Because you bought it from an authorized dealer and can prove that, or the approved documentation comes along with it. Thats what is needed in corals in order to define what is being asked to be defined.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11796710#post11796710 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by StrategicReef
what SPS keepers are willing to pay drives the prices, but at the current market prices of some of the frags..

I think it warrants a little motive to at least try to investigate the lineage of what you are buying..

yes, but the question I have is- how do we do that (investigate the lineage)? All we have right now is word of mouth, which honestly equals speculation.

 

[Kip]

i dont see an organization forming... and even at that... corals will look different in various tanks

i have a lot of "LE" pieces... some directly from known sources and some not

i dont lay awake and worry about whether or not the unknown source LE's in my collection are real deal or not. I dont try to track down their lineage. I can just look at them and know based on all i have seen/read/heard about them on the net and amongst friends.

People get ripped off all of the time. I dont know how many countless "echinata" i have seen for sale that arent even close. The collectors and wholesalers know what is popular too and they will even fudge names to make a sale.

When you are buying corals/frags and are interested in "real deal"... the burden of proof is on you the buyer... not the seller. It is on you to see a pic of what you are getting, do your homework, and make a decision to trust the source or not.

"LE" frag trading will never be an exact science.

 

[Unarce]

Originally posted by Kip
you cant take marketing out of our hobby... would be like trying to take it out of society in general

you have people that buy porsches and people that buy fords (i've owned both so dont give me any crap ...

... sure both will get you to a destination, but the porsche sure was a helluvalot more fun

like everything else in the hobby.. its all about preference and what you are willing to pay for "premium quality"

This is what many fail to grasp or are unable to accept.

Again...some buy Charmin, and others buy generic. You can have a clean @$$ either way. It's just preference. You can say that Charmin provides a quicker and comfortable way of doing it.

I love LE/lineage pieces because of their proven track record in captivity. I would like to complain to Steve about some of his recent additions . I think some need to be in captivity much longer before they make that list.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11796784#post11796784 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kip
i dont see an organization forming... and even at that... corals will look different in various tanks

i have a lot of "LE" pieces... some directly from known sources and some not

i dont lay awake and worry about whether or not the unknown source LE's in my collection are real deal or not. I dont try to track down their lineage. I can just look at them and know based on all i have seen/read/heard about them on the net and amongst friends.

People get ripped off all of the time. I dont know how many countless "echinata" i have seen for sale that arent even close. The collectors and wholesalers know what is popular too and they will even fudge names to make a sale.

When you are buying corals/frags and are interested in "real deal"... the burden of proof is on you the buyer... not the seller. It is on you to see a pic of what you are getting, do your homework, and make a decision to trust the source or not.

"LE" frag trading will never be an exact science.

I agree, and this is exactly my point. Creating or determining a lineage is realistically futile except in rare cases. At least in current times.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11796819#post11796819 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Unarce
This is what many fail to grasp or are unable to accept.

Again...some buy Charmin, and others buy generic. You can have a clean @$$ either way. It's just preference. You can say that Charmin provides a quicker and comfortable way of doing it.

I love LE/lineage pieces because of their proven track record in captivity. I would like to complain to Steve about some of his recent additions . I think some need to be in captivity much longer before they make that list.

Karl, then I will have to disagree and say that you love multigenerational captive pieces- and it has nothing to do with the fact that they are LE. But then again, how is this proven? I have a boring brown monti digitata in my tank that I cant kill. I assume it is f100 captive, but how do I know this? Or how could I ever find out? For all I know, the guy I got it from mightve have bought it as a wild colony.

 

[Unarce]

There's plenty of multi-generational out there that are great pieces, but aren't on anyone's list.

Green Slimer
Oregon Tort
GARF Bonsai
Acroberry
Superman
etc.

The designer ones typically are incredible color morphs, but it's certainly not limited to only those.

The culture is a bit different perhaps in CA, where most either knows or has heard of 'this or that guy'. In some ways, keeping track isn't as difficult as some might think. Hobbyists also seem to look out for eachother, and police the actions of others.

A good example is the Watermelon Chalice in the LPS keepers forum, where someone has a fake on ebay.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11796906#post11796906 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Unarce
There's plenty of multi-generational out there that are great pieces, but aren't on anyone's list.

Green Slimer
Oregon Tort
GARF Bonsai
Acroberry
Superman
etc.

The designer ones typically are incredible color morphs, but it's certainly not limited to only those.

The culture is a bit different perhaps in CA, where most either knows or has heard of 'this or that guy'. In some ways, keeping track isn't as difficult as some might think. Hobbyists also seem to look out for eachother, and police the actions of others.

A good example is the Watermelon Chalice in the LPS keepers forum, where someone has a fake on ebay.

I guess we will have to respectfully agree to disgree on certain points.

First, I do agree that the corals you have listed have been in captivity and appear to do quite well in captivity. However, if I offered it for sale, how would you know its not wild caught? And what does any of this have to do with LE or not?

But, you say it uis relatively easy to keep track of lineage? Lets say I buy a piece of "Tyree ponape birdnest" from you. That lineage is what? Yopu "SAY" you got it from Tyree, and he got it from the ocean, but it is just that, your word. And Why I may or may not trust and belive that, who will believe me? What is there to substantiate anything?

I guess one of my bigger points is it is all in ones mind. You brought up "watermelon chalice" and a supposed "fake". what is this about? What exactly is a "watermelon Chalice" and what is a "fake"? Who decides? WHat is the actual difference? In my mind, the only diffrence is $$$, and NO ONE has the right to determine it is "fake" or "real". If you told me you really wanted a piece of Acro from my tank, the only way you would be able to have this is if I gave it to you. Other than that, it is specualtive heresay. This is my only point.

 

[Unarce]

That's when it just depends on POV, and if you have future intentions with a particular coral. If lineage means nothing to you...then you won't bother to ask.

If you intend to trade or sell it as a 'lineaged' piece, than it's a huge benefit to know whom you're getting it from. When someone can give you a name, that says a lot. Is it 100% proof? No. Is it an exact science? No. However, collectors/farmers for the most part, are very accesible (by email, PM, phone, etc.) and if you have a name, you have a means of finding that trail (sometimes, even as far back as to what island it was collected off of and whom the collector was).

As silly as it is for some, it's worth it for collectors/farmers to get that name and check their sources.

 

[Unarce]

DP

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11797231#post11797231 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Unarce
That's when it just depends on POV, and if you have future intentions with a particular coral. If lineage means nothing to you...then you won't bother to ask.

If you intend to trade or sell it as a 'lineaged' piece, than it's a huge benefit to know whom you're getting it from. When someone can give you a name, that says a lot. Is it 100% proof? No. Is it an exact science? No. However, collectors/farmers for the most part, are very accesible (by email, PM, phone, etc.) and if you have a name, you have a means of finding that trail (sometimes, even as far back as to what island it was collected off of and whom the collector was).

As silly as it is for some, it's worth it for collectors/farmers to get that name and check their sources.

But, it is all still word of mouth, right? I have some Watermelon Chalice, will you buy it from me? I dont have the "name" or clout that you, and other well known hobbyists have, so does that mean I dont have a true Watermelon Chalice?

 

[Unarce]

That's when it depends on what's important to the buyer.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11797350#post11797350 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Unarce
That's when it depends on what's important to the buyer.

Well, I think we're going in circles here. My only pioint is that "lineages" are impossible to create for this hobby, except in rare circumstances. If any hobbyist is fixated on purchasing a specific coral from a specific person or location, then this is their prefernce, but this really has nothing to do with the hobby as a whole, or dilineating corals in the trade. It only appeases the whims of that particular hobbyist, and it ends there.

But, to each, their own.

 

[Unarce]

Originally posted by jmaneyapanda
My only pioint is that "lineages" are impossible to create for this hobby, except in rare circumstances.

I agree! It's an aspect of the hobby that's based entirely on the honor system. Some are just less honorable than others.

Happy Friday!

 

[deklin]

jmaneyapanda- You're demanding 100% certainty in an area where it is impossible to acheive. How do you 100% know that custom tank you order has Starphire glass and not just some generic low iron glass? Because they told you? How do you 100% know that 20K MH bulb is really putting out a 20K spectrum and not 18K, what about a possibility the bulb was simply rebranded by the reputable company that sold it to you? The answer is you can't 100% know, does that mean you don't buy it?

If you don't want the Charmin then just buy the generic stuff (I like that analogy Unarce )

 

[Unarce]

 

[carb850]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11796094#post11796094 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by StrategicReef
Maybe try to ask politely next time it seems to help.

Who is to say I didn't ask politely the first time? I don't believe it was my tone, I believe it was the question itself.