Hybrid Queen angelfish?

[AngelAddict]

I agree with that, how you explained the Brazilian queen. Now how do You explain Not only the queens seeming to have some blue traits and the blues having some queen traits? That is the big question. My answer is somewhere along the line there was some hybridization. I got a queen from the keys That looked Just like a Brazilian, lots of orange. From what I was told, these you could think of as 100% purebred queens. Makes sense, You pay more for the Brazilian, just as you would with dogs etc. With mostly queens in Brazilian, that's obvious what your going to get. In the Caribbean, there's are good chance of the two breeding together not only due to location, but the similarities in both. Some that come in the trade people don't know whether to call them queens or blues, especially at a juvenile stage. I guess that's where the hybrid Town osend came from.

It'd be very interesting to see if you took a Brazilian queen, northern Atlantic blue and a Caribbean "Townsend" and compared their DNA. As for the regal, the pygoplites genus is monotypic. So what possibility does the regal have in breeding with another angel? There's nothing similar to it, not quote like the queen and blue. Just my opinion, but I see more "Townsend" hybrids then any other hybrid angel (probably fish in general). I'd say this is due to such closely related traits and wide overlapping range which they are found in. Very interesting topic to say the least.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I agree with that, how you explained the Brazilian queen. Now how do You explain Not only the queens seeming to have some blue traits and the blues having some queen traits? That is the big question. My answer is somewhere along the line there was some hybridization. I got a queen from the keys That looked Just like a Brazilian, lots of orange. From what I was told, these you could think of as 100% purebred queens. Makes sense, You pay more for the Brazilian, just as you would with dogs etc. With mostly queens in Brazilian, that's obvious what your going to get. In the Caribbean, there's are good chance of the two breeding together not only due to location, but the similarities in both. Some that come in the trade people don't know whether to call them queens or blues, especially at a juvenile stage. I guess that's where the hybrid Town osend came from.

It'd be very interesting to see if you took a Brazilian queen, northern Atlantic blue and a Caribbean "Townsend" and compared their DNA. As for the regal, the pygoplites genus is monotypic. So what possibility does the regal have in breeding with another angel? There's nothing similar to it, not quote like the queen and blue. Just my opinion, but I see more "Townsend" hybrids then any other hybrid angel (probably fish in general). I'd say this is due to such closely related traits and wide overlapping range which they are found in. Very interesting topic to say the least.

Nobody's saying that hybrids dont exist. They do. If Queens show up looking like blues, or vice versa, so be it. But to claim that Caribbean queens as a whole are blueish from regular and consistent hybridization is far fetched, in my opinion. Whose to say the the "natural" color of a queen angelfish is? You may say gold, I say blue, someone else says plaid. Who's right? A very simple and easy explanation for coloration is a very normal mutation in genes. It happens all the time. Could that have happened in the Brazilian queens a million years ago, and that trait proliferated? Likely, in my opinion. Why are there blues that look like queens? Maybe hybridization. Maybe genetic defect? Who knows. But, youre suggesting that an entire region of fish has hybridized to create a new patternation, which to me is rather unfounded.

As per your 100% purebred queen comment, that has to be the giantest pile of donkey manure Ive heard. Purebred queens? I hate to suggest it, but that is a devious sales pitch. There is NOTHING to back that up. You pay more for Brazilian fish because of supply and demand, and actual cost to land in the USA, not a pedigree. They may be more uncommon, and cost more to land here than fish from Florida, so they cost more. Plain and simple.

Here is the deal with hybridization- by definition, it shouldn't be common or prolific. It should far and away be the minority. Otherwise, a species differentiation wouldnt be made.

The Regal angel issue leads to EXACTLY my point. Hybridization isnt likely. So how do these two phenotypes come about? And why isnt this possible with queens?

Also, FWIW, I see thousands more Centropyge hybrids than Townshends.

 

[AngelAddict]

I used purebred as an example, I'm not saying queens from Brazil come with papers and you know the parents history. Not all queens/blues in the Caribbean are hybrids. There are some queens That look identical to the Brazilian ones. Also what if a Townsend breeds with a queen, and that offspring breeds with a queen and continues to do so down the line. Now you have a queen that is Maybe 25% or less blue, does That count as a hybrid? There really isn't any fine line here, like you said, its basically all whatever anyone wants to say it is. Also I never suggested That the entire region were all hybrids.I don't see your regal point, there is no possibility of That fish forming a hybrid while two very similar holocanthus angels in overlapping regions very well may.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Like I said, we will have to agree to disagree. Respectfully.

If the methods you are suggesting are realistic, then blues and queens are the same species. By definition. You are suggesting that the Caribbean "variety" is caused by hybridizing with blues- this is suggesting that the greatest population is likely a hybrid of sorts. The majority cant be the minority. Hybrization is unnatrural between species- again, by definition. Perhaps I am splitting hairs, but the principle your suggesting for why these fish are colored the way they are is rather ludicrous to my brain. No offense.

In regards to the regals- here you have two variants from two different locales. Caused by NOT hybridizing. So we have defined that this is not only possible, but proliferant. Could even be the precursor to speciation, but this IS the way nature ticks. Shift over to the Eastern Atlantic. We have the SAME outcome, now with different species, which are capable of hybridization. Why in the world is the scenario, which has already proven to be factually correct, being discarding in leiu of a theory which in completly unnatural (and completely improbable, in my mind)?

 

[29reef]

It's discussions like this one where I actually read something usefull. Thank you both for posting! Great stuff. :celeb1:

 

[reef_shadow]

I'll second that! Great discussion. Thanks for the input.

 

[AngelAddict]

Like I said, we will have to agree to disagree. Respectfully.

If the methods you are suggesting are realistic, then blues and queens are the same species. By definition. You are suggesting that the Caribbean "variety" is caused by hybridizing with blues- this is suggesting that the greatest population is likely a hybrid of sorts. The majority cant be the minority. Hybrization is unnatrural between species- again, by definition. Perhaps I am splitting hairs, but the principle your suggesting for why these fish are colored the way they are is rather ludicrous to my brain. No offense.

In regards to the regals- here you have two variants from two different locales. Caused by NOT hybridizing. So we have defined that this is not only possible, but proliferant. Could even be the precursor to speciation, but this IS the way nature ticks. Shift over to the Eastern Atlantic. We have the SAME outcome, now with different species, which are capable of hybridization. Why in the world is the scenario, which has already proven to be factually correct, being discarding in leiu of a theory which in completly unnatural (and completely improbable, in my mind)?

Ha, yes, respectfully agree to disagree. However I don't think your fully understanding me, maybe I'm not fully understanding you. So are you saying there are two different types of queen angels based on region like the regal? I disagree with that due to the fact that there are queens which look identical to the Brazilian version that are found in the Caribbean. However I don't know how many "Caribbean versions" there are in Brazil. Do you ever find any yellow belly regals in the Indo or white in the red sea? I don't know how the two got they're differences, just like the hippo or the yellow belly hippo. There's a lot of questions with little explanations.
My theory (I have no data to prove this as fact) is that the holocanthus angels that have both blue and queen traits have some history of hybridization. Those traits could have been many generations ago,but the traits will still carry on,possibly favored to one side or the other, depending on more recent breedings. So are you saying this Townsend angel is a different species then the ciliaris or bermudensis? Has that been classified as a new angel? Holocanthus townsendi? To my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong, it hasn't,nor do I think it should. Now my opinion doesn't count, I don't have a PhD in marine biology nor in classifications. I just see That two closely related species with overlapping regions will have some definite hybridization while there are still blues and queens in the Caribbean that don't.


29reef and reef shadow, Ha,glad someone is getting something from this! I was about to take this discussion to PMs. As J said, we'll have to agree to disagree, neither is right nor wrong until science can someday put this debate to rest since neither of us have any real hard data.

 

[scchase]

The two species are probably derived from a common ancestor anyways most likely at least to me thet split durign the last ice age when the coast of Florida extended much further south likely blocking mixing of the 2 parent species long enough for distinct populations to emerge. If this is true then of course they would still be able to easily hybridize, I would go so far as to say they aren't disinct species to begin with just color morphs of the same species on their way to becoming new species if the right situation occurs.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Yes, you are not really understanding my point. Would you agree, that the VAST majority of the queens in the Caribbean are a blueish color. By your example, these are due to hybridization. How can the vast majority of fish be hybrids? That is illogical. As scchase stated, these fish likely evolved from a single species at one point. Why would they be pushing to recombine into a single species (in an evolutionary sense)? So, looking at the question "why are Caribbean Queens blue?" We have come up with 2 theories- 1) They have excessively hybridized with blues to cause a washed blue color from the "true" gold color, or 2) it is simply a regional variation, caused by genetic mutation, and isolated plasticity. Theory 1 violates the guidelines of speciation and hybridization theory, whereas theory 2 has been SHOWN to have occurred with a huge number of species, including fish (as mentioned). Why you are insisting its the formaer, I have no clue.

 

[AngelAddict]

As you aren't understanding my point. If they both evolved from one fish,how can there be a hybrid? I don't know how many are hybrids, what ones are more blue, more yellow, etc because I'm not there. If You say that the Caribbean version is different then the Brazilian, explain how there still are lots of queens which look identical to the Brazilian in the Caribbean? But this can't be because there regional fish! Its like having yellow belly regals in the Indo, but that's not the case. I think I'm done with this discussion, neither of us have facts to back our points up, its what WE think, were not going to see each others valid points. Like you said, agree to disagree. I'd still love to see some actual testing on these fish, I think the results would be very interesting,shocking to some maybe.

 

[AngelAddict]

There are differences in color no matter where you get them, and after collecting for a living for most of my life I can say that there are individuals from all over that are brighter and duller in the populations. I have seen solid gold ones, where the only other color was the crown and blue edging to the dorsal and anal fin. Some of the duller ones do come from farther north (ie the keys and south FL) but that is probably because they have some blue angel blood in them. Townsends are common and when they breed with a pure queen you get a fish that looks like a pure queen with dull color. the opposite happens when they breed with a pure blue angel, a brighter looking blue angel.

There is a population of koi and abberent colored queens from St Paul's Rocks in the atlantic off the coast of Brazil, but as far as I know there are no collections from there. You have probably seen the photos of some of them, wild multi colored fish, but I've never seen photos of juv's only full grown adults. IMO from being in the trade one of two things are happening, first, since there are no blues in Brazil, therer are no hybrids so you get all pure queens, and second I've seen collectors in FL and the keyes label pure queens as Brazillian to get more money, but a prue bred queen from FL is just as beautiful as any from further south.

Heres a quick Google search that I found. I'm sure there are lots more like this, but searching RC is kind of hard. This person actually sees what fish come in from where, even he uses the term "purebred" I've heard it elsewhere too. A collector, believe that! Biggest pile of donkey manure huh?

 

[jmaneyapanda]

As you aren't understanding my point. If they both evolved from one fish,how can there be a hybrid? I don't know how many are hybrids, what ones are more blue, more yellow, etc because I'm not there. If You say that the Caribbean version is different then the Brazilian, explain how there still are lots of queens which look identical to the Brazilian in the Caribbean? But this can't be because there regional fish! Its like having yellow belly regals in the Indo, but that's not the case. I think I'm done with this discussion, neither of us have facts to back our points up, its what WE think, were not going to see each others valid points. Like you said, agree to disagree. I'd still love to see some actual testing on these fish, I think the results would be very interesting,shocking to some maybe.

It is very very simple. They evolved from one fish, but now are two separate species. Do you agree? Therefore, hybrids can exists, but cannot be he majority, otherwise, there would only be one species! The reason there are gold ones in the Caribbean and blue ones in Brazil, is because the coloration discrepancy is caused by regional DNA variation. Plain and simple. The same reason There is light and dark specimens of EVERY fish.

Here is the brass tacks- you said Caribbean queens are blue from hybridizing with blue angels. I say that is unfounded and incorrect. I believe they are blue as just local regional variations. My question for you is- why is teh most plausible theory to you for this blue coloration the least likely biological reason? I cannot fathom that. Like I said, I am not saying hybridization doesnt occur. It does. I am saying it is VERY few and far between. And certainly WOULD NOT cause the coloration of the majority of fish within a region to be altered. Just my opinion based on my experience, education, and background.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Heres a quick Google search that I found. I'm sure there are lots more like this, but searching RC is kind of hard. This person actually sees what fish come in from where, even he uses the term "purebred" I've heard it elsewhere too. A collector, believe that! Biggest pile of donkey manure huh?

A pile of donkey manure indeed! While Philter seems a intelligent and versed fellow, his comment is ENTIRELY speculative! If you want to change my mind, find me a reference from someone who ISNT a collector (which I believe Philter is, no offense to him), and whose work is unbiased. If you would like teh same from me, I have a pile of collge textbooks on evolutionary biology from college that will all scream that teh principles you are implying isnt biologically proper.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

As you aren't understanding my point. If they both evolved from one fish,how can there be a hybrid? I don't know how many are hybrids, what ones are more blue, more yellow, etc because I'm not there. If You say that the Caribbean version is different then the Brazilian, explain how there still are lots of queens which look identical to the Brazilian in the Caribbean? But this can't be because there regional fish! Its like having yellow belly regals in the Indo, but that's not the case. I think I'm done with this discussion, neither of us have facts to back our points up, its what WE think, were not going to see each others valid points. Like you said, agree to disagree. I'd still love to see some actual testing on these fish, I think the results would be very interesting,shocking to some maybe.

Heres where I think youre getting mixed up on my contention- these colors are there because of regional breeding and isolated populations, over the course of thousands to tens of thousands of years. I am speaking of the group as a consensus whole. Is there going to be anomalous colored individuals? Of course! Will they be gold, plaid, albino? Of course! Does that mean they were caused by hybridizing? Heck no! I am not speaking of coloration of an individual fish, but instead of the population as a whole. And to define the population of Caribbean queens as a whole as being a causal reaction to hybridizing isnt biologically sound.

Lets interject a new idea into this- why do individual fish change color from the "standard" species coloration? There are a huge number of reasons, many of which are environmental, dietary, pathogenic, or genetic. Take a look at the captive breeding efforts going on now. We see anomalous patterns and colors for ALL the reasons stated here. Why are you so quick to immediate discredit all but one?

 

[AngelAddict]

OK, lets not talk about color, yet features. Do we agree that blues lack the crown and queens have it? So where do an angel that has all the blue colors, looks identical to a blue, yet has a crown? What is that and how did that come about? How can That fish get the crown Just from being in a certain region without having some queen ancestry? If what your saying is correct, all the blueray would look the sane and all the queens would, in their specific regions. That's not the case. There are multiple types of queens in the Caribbean, while some match the Brazilian. There are also several different looking blues in the Caribbean. So with What your saying, they all should have evolved and look the same within that region. Part of the species wont evolve why the rest chose not to. So there is some definite hybridization going on,more then you think I'd say.

Your point would make more sense to me if only Brazilian looking queens were found in Brazil and there wasn't such a diverse mix in the Caribbean. Explain the diverse mix? Going back to the regal angel, the Indo is white chested, they all look the same besides the occasional misbar. Same goes for red sea. Those are region related, no hybridization. The same is Not the case foe the queen/blue. I'm not saying every queen/blue in the Caribbean is a hybrid or has ancestry of hybridization, but there's definitely more then you think. Blues don't just form crowns on their head while others don't in the sane area. Or some queens feel like being more orange, or more blue or more yellow when they're all in the same region. Please explain the diversity to me in the Caribbean Where both species interact and mix the most?

 

[melanotaenia]

unless you are running genetic testing on these fish, none of you really can talk about who is right and wrong in this argument, regardless of how many textbooks or references to travel of fish and what fish "mix" with who.

 

[AngelAddict]

unless you are running genetic testing on these fish, none of you really can talk about who is right and wrong in this argument, regardless of how many textbooks or references to travel of fish and what fish "mix" with who.

Could not agree more, nobody is right nor wrong. We are all entitled to our own opinions and like stated, we'll have to agree to disagree, respectfully. I think I'm done here with this thread/topic,until there's actual data revealed, there's nothing else to say.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

OK, lets not talk about color, yet features. Do we agree that blues lack the crown and queens have it? So where do an angel that has all the blue colors, looks identical to a blue, yet has a crown? What is that and how did that come about? How can That fish get the crown Just from being in a certain region without having some queen ancestry? If what your saying is correct, all the blueray would look the sane and all the queens would, in their specific regions. That's not the case. There are multiple types of queens in the Caribbean, while some match the Brazilian. There are also several different looking blues in the Caribbean. So with What your saying, they all should have evolved and look the same within that region. Part of the species wont evolve why the rest chose not to. So there is some definite hybridization going on,more then you think I'd say.

Your point would make more sense to me if only Brazilian looking queens were found in Brazil and there wasn't such a diverse mix in the Caribbean. Explain the diverse mix? Going back to the regal angel, the Indo is white chested, they all look the same besides the occasional misbar. Same goes for red sea. Those are region related, no hybridization. The same is Not the case foe the queen/blue. I'm not saying every queen/blue in the Caribbean is a hybrid or has ancestry of hybridization, but there's definitely more then you think. Blues don't just form crowns on their head while others don't in the sane area. Or some queens feel like being more orange, or more blue or more yellow when they're all in the same region. Please explain the diversity to me in the Caribbean Where both species interact and mix the most?

Uh, what youre describing IS color. It isnt morphology. I am not up to speed on the merisitics of blues vs. queens, but I would question the ONLY difference is a crown. There is possibly a meristical difference also. I will look into this, though.

As per the variation, this is do to random breeding. Genetics are passed along. Again, this is not rare happenstance. Why are flame angels from Hawaii VERY red, as compared to Marshall Island flames? Why are Aussie Tusks brighter colored, as compared to indo tusks? Using your rationale, it hybridization (?) Nonsense. If youre asking me why there is a large variation is colors in queen angelfish, I havent a clue. As I said, it may be dietary, it may be environmental, it may be pathogenic, or all of these. Im just saying you dont have the right to say its from hybridization with blues absolutely.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Could not agree more, nobody is right nor wrong. We are all entitled to our own opinions and like stated, we'll have to agree to disagree, respectfully. I think I'm done here with this thread/topic,until there's actual data revealed, there's nothing else to say.

I agree 10000%. Which is what my argument has always been. You cant claim it is from hybridization!

 

[AngelAddict]

Don't claim it, its my opinion, not fact. The crown is the biggest marking that distinguishes the queen from the blue. A blue can't just grow it because it wants to. Also with colors again,only Aussie tusks have red tails, only Indos don't, its clearly a region thing. You don't see them both in the same region where there's some with clear tails and some with red. Same as flames. But if you go to the Caribbean where the two regions of fish intertwine, you get an assorted mix! I wonder why? My vote gets hybridization, at least in the ancestry bloodline or from when this species was one, they are still separating? Weird that its taking this long in this area but not others. Also, there has been known hybrids, townsends, so why rule it out? I don't think its anything you've said simply due to the fact that in this region you have every different color, crowned or not queen/blue/Townsend/hybrid whatever You want to call them. So it can't be an environmental issue since They live in identical environments, eat the same foods, etc. So What could it be? We don't know, you know my "guess" but its not been proven. Your region guess can be throw out, its a pile of manure