hydrogen peroxide and dinoflagellates

[jacob.morgan78]

I have a 20 gallon tank that's a little over 4 months old that I think has dinoflagellates. I'm not sure, I'll add a couple vids to the bottom so you can make your own guess if you want. It's either dinos, just a part of the cycle, or a biproduct of my biopellets maturing. I'm not 100%.

Anyways, I've heard that h2o2 can help get rid of some dinos. My question is how much should I dose? How often should I dose? When should I dose?

The tank does not have any corals yet, 2 fish, and some snails and hermits. It's about 25 gallons total volume.


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Thanks!

 

[wonderz]

Anyways, I've heard that h2o2 can help get rid of some dinos. My question is how much should I dose? How often should I dose? When should I dose?

I would suggest 1ml per 10 gallon to start off and dose at night that is when dino tend to be more in the water column and the no lights so the h2o2 will work longer. You should also do daily siphon of dino since dosing h2o2 alone won't get rid it, just kills off the dino that's in water column. You can also try target injection with h2o2, but I think its a little hard to do under water.

disclaimer: use h2o2 at your own risk since they might have effect on sensitive corals and/or invertebrates.

 

[jacob.morgan78]

Thank you.

Do you think it's necessary to cover the tank at first or can I just leave the lights off and not worry about ambient light this first time around.

Since I don't have any corals yet, can I get away with using more h202? I don't necessarily want to use more but would if it would be more effective.

Thanks again!

 

[wonderz]

Honestly, I think lights out and h2o2 are just bandaid. Because once you stop doing it, and you didn't change the water parameters, they are gonna come back. I would start with setting up refugium and GFO reactor if you haven't already.

To answer your questions, it is not "necessary", but it would be better to do complete black out. And people reported using more h2o2 than 1ml/10g, but I would start with that and see how your cuc do first.

And just FYI, once you kill off dino with h2o2, you will have a chance to see cyanobacteria showing up from the dino die off.

 

[bertoni]

I'd probably just ignore the bloom for now, but if any food is going into the tank, I'd back off on that. You might want to check the nitrate and phosphate levels at some point, if you haven't already, in case the live rock or dry rock was a bit contaminated.

 

[jacob.morgan78]

I posted the below on a local forum and thought I would paste it here. This was about two months ago and I'm still dino free. :fingerscrossed:

I only stopped dosing yesterday so anything can still happen but thought I would post my experience and some before/after shots. I had tried lights out before without much success... a little die off but not a lot. From Thursday to Wednesday, I dosed 5mL of a new bottle of 3% hydrogen peroxide every night. That's about a 2mL per 10 gallon dose because my estimated total volume is 25 gallon. That is higher than what's generally recommended but I didn't have much in the tank so I decided to up it a little. During this time I didn't turn on the lights and shaded the side of the tank closest to the window, not 100% black out. I did turn the lights on once so the fish could come out and eat. I didn't have any coral in the tank yet but did have 2 firefish and a small cleanup crew of hermits and a couple margarita snails. Everybody seems happy.

Before

After

Feel free to ask any questions!

 

[NeilFox]

Where did you get that rock from. Dead dry stuff like that takes more than 4 months to be reef safe if you just threw it in there. Did those inverts survive the Dino outbreak? Normally they would be dead. I'm not sure if upping the redox potential has been proven to wipe out dinoflagettes? The funny thing about this is this just looks like typical new tank stuff that will go away on it's own anyway. Sorry Jacob, I just question the wisdom of keeping HO Lighting on a tank devoid of photosynthetic animals to begin with? What are you attempting to achieve? Feeding fish and zero means of exporting it other than mechanical. The problem would have gone away just by itself if the tank had been cycled properly. There are "Umpteen" threads on here about a "Dinoflagette Outbreak" in tanks that aren't fully cycled or better yet matured. For some reason H2O2 seams to be the cure (in conjunction with turning off the lights for a few days?)? Oddly enough!!

I really wish you guys would go back to basics instead of f'ing up your water chemistry before it has a chance to stabilize. Real Dinoflagettes will wipe out a tank and inhabitants in short order. They are typically free swimming also. Check your pH. Something nobody seems to do anymore. My understanding is that a true dino bloom will deplete oxygen and drive pH down. I'm not a chemist and perhaps I'm wrong. Just someone that has been keeping reefs for 25 years.

 

[JustinGr]

Yes, in my case the Dino drove the PH down to 7.75ish. My tank was well established, and the Dino killed my CUC, clams, all of my SPS and the lights out only caused a momentary retreat of the Dino for a day once the lights came back on. Extended light out periods also took its toll and killed several LSP. I did the GFO, I have an ATS, my Mag, Alk, Cal, etc were on the high end of good. I had 0 Phos and Nitrate readings, and 3 small fish.

It took AlgaeX to kill it.

 

[NeilFox]

Justin, you had the real deal. I'm glad you posted this. From what I have seen of Dino it becomes mat like with bubbles forming under it. In the morning when lights come on you don't see as much. Was this your experience?

 

[jacob.morgan78]

Where did you get that rock from. Dead dry stuff like that takes more than 4 months to be reef safe if you just threw it in there. it cooked for about 3 months before touching my tankDid those inverts survive the Dino outbreak?yes. some snail loss but not total Normally they would be dead. I'm not sure if upping the redox potential has been proven to wipe out dinoflagettes? The funny thing about this is this just looks like typical new tank stuff that will go away on it's own anyway. Sorry Jacobfake apology, I just question the wisdom of keeping HO Lighting on a tank devoid of photosynthetic animals to begin with? it will have, just hadn't added yet... is there no benefit to getting your system accustomed to the light it will have when other life is introduced???What are you attempting to achieve? Feeding fish and zero means of exportingi do waterchanges it other than mechanical. The problem would have gone away just by itself if the tank had been cycled properly.i cycled it properly There are "Umpteen" threads on here about a "Dinoflagette Outbreak" in tanks that aren't fully cycled or better yet matured. For some reason H2O2 seams to be the cure (in conjunction with turning off the lights for a few days?)? had tried lights out by itself twice before thisOddly enough!!

I really wish you guys would go back to basicsI've been doing the basics for a long time instead of f'ing up your water chemistry didn't "f" it up at all reallybefore it has a chance to stabilize. Real Dinoflagettes will wipe out a tank and inhabitants in short order. They are typically free swimming also. Check your pH. Something nobody seems to do anymore. check the pH daily via controllerMy understanding is that a true dino bloom will deplete oxygen and drive pH down. I'm not a chemist and perhaps I'm wrong.IMO, you are. Just someone that has been keeping reefs for 25 years.

get off my case.

 

[brandon429]

Im lol right now. because we are all funny and your per sentence evaluation jacob sometimes rc is just dang funny. whatever gets reults is valid and ranges between tanks sometimes.

 

[NeilFox]

I'm not on your case Jacob. There is just a whole bunch of Dinoflaggete cases lately. There is also alot of misdiagnosis and a few people have seriously damaged their systems. I noticed you put some caveats in there saying that doing what you did may be detrimental. Do a search for yourself and you will see alot of commonality between your post and at least three in as many days. I am glad it worked out for you. Get this thing up and running and get some life in it!!! Love the rockscape BTW, it going to look alot better with some coral in there! I sincerely apologise if I offended you. Not Fake.

Regards

Neil

 

[JustinGr]

Justin, you had the real deal. I'm glad you posted this. From what I have seen of Dino it becomes mat like with bubbles forming under it. In the morning when lights come on you don't see as much. Was this your experience?

Yes, it would be minimal at lights on, then within hours you could see it grow and fill with bubbles. You can remove it or stir it up in the sand and within hours it was back in a blanket.

Nasty stuff.

 

[jacob.morgan78]

I understand. After this, I actually saw half the threads you're talking about. My response was probably a little too harsh... sorry. Thanks for the compliments! I too am looking forward to getting more life in it!

 

[bertoni]

Dead dry stuff like that takes more than 4 months to be reef safe if you just threw it in there.

Why should dry rock take 4 months to be reef safe?

Real Dinoflagettes will wipe out a tank and inhabitants in short order. They are typically free swimming also.

Sometimes, but not always. Dinoflagellates typically won't harm fish, for example.

Check your pH. Something nobody seems to do anymore. My understanding is that a true dino bloom will deplete oxygen and drive pH down.

It's the buildup of carbon dioxide that lowers the pH, and many tanks have enough aeration that the pH change can be minimal or unmeasurable with hobbyist equipment.

 

[NeilFox]

Actually I came accross as a little bit of a know it all. I stand corrected.

 

[tmz]

I personally wouldn't dose peroxide to a tank;it kills things seen and unseen.

If it does kill dinoflagellates, then it's killing other things too. How
about zooxanthelae? It's an endosymbiont dinoflagellate What about amyloodinium( marine velvet) another dinoflagellate? Frominifarins? shrimp? serpent stars? sponges? other microfauna? et alia? I doesn't just kill what you may want it to kill. At some level it will wipe out a tank.

I suspect organics carbon and the other nutrients have a lot to do with blooms of dinoflagellates . Low pH related to CO2 producing bacterial activity related to nutrients and decaying matter may also play a role .
Some dinoflagellates produce nuerotoxins harmful to marine life and people who may eat fish that have consumed them. There are abut 2000 species of this protist. Some are autotrophic ;some or heterotrophic; some are mixotrophic. I suspect the ones we commonly deal with are primarily photosynthetic(autotrophic), in which case, they will use CO2 not add it. Perhaps , that accounts for pH raising techniques that have reported successes in limiting dinos ;as ,higher pH levels means less CO2 in the water.

It does seem there are a number of cases of dinofalgellate blooms associated with dry rock additions to aquariums ,lately. I think dry rock should be cured like regular live rock, ; it's not always as clean as folks think . It may have organic material on /in it and often leaches PO4 which may be underlying factors for a dino bloom.

Siphoning dinos out persistently for a week ,running gac,skimming and raisng ph can get rid of them, ime. I may not always but has worked for me when I helped my friend rid his lfs display tank of them on two occasions over the past few years.
I have accidentally introduced some dinos into my system on two occasions when they showed up on the base rock of a new coral . On both occasions they disappeared in days without spreading. The system has low nutrients and reasonably high pH,fwiw.

 

[NeilFox]

I personally wouldn't dose peroxide to a tank;it kills things seen and unseen.

If it does kill dinoflagellates, then it's killing other things too. How
about zooxanthelae? It's an endosymbiont dinoflagellate What about amyloodinium( marine velvet) another dinoflagellate? Frominifarins? shrimp? serpent stars? sponges? other microfauna? et alia? I doesn't just kill what you may want it to kill. At some level it will wipe out a tank.

I suspect organics carbon and the other nutrients have a lot to do with blooms of dinoflagellates . Low pH related to CO2 producing bacterial activity related to nutrients and decaying matter may also play a role .
Some dinoflagellates produce nuerotoxins harmful to marine life and people who may eat fish that have consumed them. There are abut 2000 species of this protist. Some are autotrophic ;some or heterotrophic; some are mixotrophic. I suspect the ones we commonly deal with are primarily photosynthetic(autotrophic), in which case, they will use CO2 not add it. Perhaps , that accounts for pH raising techniques that have reported successes in limiting dinos ;as ,higher pH levels means less CO2 in the water.

It does seem there are a number of cases of dinofalgellate blooms associated with dry rock additions to aquariums ,lately. I think dry rock should be cured like regular live rock, ; it's not always as clean as folks think . It may have organic material on /in it and often leaches PO4 which may be underlying factors for a dino bloom.

Siphoning dinos out persistently for a week ,running gac,skimming and raisng ph can get rid of them, ime. I may not always but has worked for me when I helped my friend rid his lfs display tank of them on two occasions over the past few years.
I have accidentally introduced some dinos into my system on two occasions when they showed up on the base rock of a new coral . On both occasions they disappeared in days without spreading. The system has low nutrients and reasonably high pH,fwiw.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply Tom...

 

[phryan]

cpt277

cpt277

Honestly, I think lights out and h2o2 are just bandaid. Because once you stop doing it, and you didn't change the water parameters, they are gonna come back. I would start with setting up refugium and GFO reactor if you haven't already.

To answer your questions, it is not "necessary", but it would be better to do complete black out. And people reported using more h2o2 than 1ml/10g, but I would start with that and see how your cuc do first.

And just FYI, once you kill off dino with h2o2, you will have a chance to see cyanobacteria showing up from the dino die off.

I dosed 1ml per gal (using a doser and spread it over 24 hour) for 3 weeks and did not see any change in my Dino population. After running dark for 4 days they were gone and did not return.

The only livestock that died were 2 smaller (2-2.5 inch) clams, not sure if it was prolonged exposure to H202 or the blackout but I lean toward the blackout. A much larger clam 4.5 inch survived.

 

[tmz]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply Tom...

You are welcome.