Hyposalinity: how-to; when-to; how-long-to
- Thread starter Sk8r
- Start date
Dips, even full FW, do nothing for ich. The parasite is too embedded in the fishes skin. A FW fish can loosen and dislodge some Amyloodinium, but only some. Such dips will not kill it, and are not effective for treatment. [/i]Amyloodinium[/i] is also quite tolerant of low salinity.
1.012 isn't any safer for the fish, and raising the temp doesn't dislodge any parasites. Especially when your raising it to the parasites ideal temp range.
Documentation please. I haven't seen any for that time range. And I certainly I haven't experienced this with treating thousands of fish with hypo.
They become free swimming even if the substrate isn't stirred
BTW, I'd highly recommend picking up a copy of Dr. Edward Noga's "Fish Disease, Diagnosis and Treatment". It's the top text on the subject currently, and well worth having for anyone with a serious interest in fish disease, and must have for those of us with a professional interest IMO.
Well BILL I guess your experience with hypo salinity has been different than mine.
I'M not suggesting that dips will cure ick but that it has been used to reduce parasites and I agree that parasites will not die from HYPOSALINITY alone. But yet you state that ick will not survive 1.009.
It is the abrupt change is osmotic pressure that kills parasites and reduces numbers .But these are life forms not car parts so nothing is absolute .
iCK will eventualy drop off the fish to complete its life cycle. Increasing the temps will cause ick to fall off but it will also cause an increase in tomites reinfecting the host which is why copper better be in the water . And yet some will make back to the host.New white spots which may confuse the inexperienced into thinking they never disloged.
The ideal temperature range is one which favors the parasites life cycle which will cause it to metomorph to the next stage and dislodge to become a tomont . Which is what you want, Remember it is the free swimming stage which is the most vulnerable.
You have treated thousands of fish with hypo HOW LONG DID YOU KEEP THEM AFTERWARDS ? Renal damage doesnt kill a fish immediately it takes time .
EACH fish is different and each react differently.One can not say that a Morish idol will endur that which a tomatoe clown can survive!
As far as doucumentation Im telling you as a Veterinarian who has kept all the many fish that I have treated through out the past decades THE RESULTS OF MY FINDINGS.
Sand stirring will give rise to the resting [ IN THE DISPLAY TANK] therefore increase the incidence. I think you may not be reading my text to closely but rather picking it apart for the sake of criticizing it.
Thanks for the suggested reading ,if ALL IT TOOK WAS TO READ ABOUT A DISEASE TO CURE IT we would not be having this discussion. In medicine each case will respond differently. We see the problems that our freinds are having treating this disease.They are applying what they have read. All life forms want to complete thier life cycle, there will always be variables, success and loss, no magic bullets.:deadhorse:
I'M not suggesting that dips will cure ick but that it has been used to reduce parasites and I agree that parasites will not die from HYPOSALINITY alone. But yet you state that ick will not survive 1.009.
It is the abrupt change is osmotic pressure that kills parasites and reduces numbers .But these are life forms not car parts so nothing is absolute .
iCK will eventualy drop off the fish to complete its life cycle. Increasing the temps will cause ick to fall off but it will also cause an increase in tomites reinfecting the host which is why copper better be in the water . And yet some will make back to the host.New white spots which may confuse the inexperienced into thinking they never disloged.
The ideal temperature range is one which favors the parasites life cycle which will cause it to metomorph to the next stage and dislodge to become a tomont . Which is what you want, Remember it is the free swimming stage which is the most vulnerable.
You have treated thousands of fish with hypo HOW LONG DID YOU KEEP THEM AFTERWARDS ? Renal damage doesnt kill a fish immediately it takes time .
EACH fish is different and each react differently.One can not say that a Morish idol will endur that which a tomatoe clown can survive!
As far as doucumentation Im telling you as a Veterinarian who has kept all the many fish that I have treated through out the past decades THE RESULTS OF MY FINDINGS.
Sand stirring will give rise to the resting [ IN THE DISPLAY TANK] therefore increase the incidence. I think you may not be reading my text to closely but rather picking it apart for the sake of criticizing it.
Thanks for the suggested reading ,if ALL IT TOOK WAS TO READ ABOUT A DISEASE TO CURE IT we would not be having this discussion. In medicine each case will respond differently. We see the problems that our freinds are having treating this disease.They are applying what they have read. All life forms want to complete thier life cycle, there will always be variables, success and loss, no magic bullets.:deadhorse:
downbydasea
New member
So I have a tank that has a pair of Maroon clowns, 2 pair of cardinals, a Koran, couple of damsels, mandrin, and serpant star as well as 2 small rbtas. The clowns are showing the signs of ich, dark spots on the yellow stripes and lite dusting over body with very small spots. At this time the other fish dont seem to be infected however, my question is would it be better to remove all the fish to a QT and do the hypo or remove the rbtas and hypo the tank they are in now? Is there a concern of the ich infecting the LR?
Thanks for the suggestions.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Is the tank set up with live rock and/or live sand? If so, it's better to transfer all the fish to a seperate treatment tank and allow the main tank to be fallow for at least 6 weeks to allow the ich to die out, while the fish are being treated.
dkeller_nc
New member
An addendum just in case other folks are reading this thread for reference purposes and are (needlessly) concerned about possible long-term damage to their fish from hyposalinity.
It's worth noting that, contrary to the OP's comment, renal damage is swiftly fatal in most vertebrate animals, including reef fish. However, the important point is that unlike land-dwelling vertebrate animals, fish largely regulate their internal osmotic pressure through their gills, not their kidneys.
Moreover, because the tissue is quite thin to allow efficient dissolved gas exchange, negative effects of osmotic shock are likely to affect the gills first before affecting the rest of the fish's vital system.
In other words, you are likely to notice adverse consequences of too large of an osmotic pressure change on a fish quite rapidly. There is virtually no evidence in the scientific literature to support long-term organ failure as a result of osmotic shock. Either the change in salinity was enough to kill the animal, or it wasn't, in which case full and complete recovery should be expected.
It's worth noting that, contrary to the OP's comment, renal damage is swiftly fatal in most vertebrate animals, including reef fish. However, the important point is that unlike land-dwelling vertebrate animals, fish largely regulate their internal osmotic pressure through their gills, not their kidneys.
Moreover, because the tissue is quite thin to allow efficient dissolved gas exchange, negative effects of osmotic shock are likely to affect the gills first before affecting the rest of the fish's vital system.
In other words, you are likely to notice adverse consequences of too large of an osmotic pressure change on a fish quite rapidly. There is virtually no evidence in the scientific literature to support long-term organ failure as a result of osmotic shock. Either the change in salinity was enough to kill the animal, or it wasn't, in which case full and complete recovery should be expected.
blusafe
New member
Special cysts?
Special cysts?
Where is everyone getting the information that ich forms "special" cysts at high temp? I thought the life cycle was accelerated at high temp; and "special" hibernation cysts formed at low temp. As for high temp, this study provides evidence (non-conclusive) that trophont (feeding) stage is accelerated.
" At 20 C trophonts stayed on the fish longer, tomonts took longer to excyst, and the resulting theronts were larger than at 25 C. On L. calcarifer at 20 C, trophonts grew slowly at first but eventually became significantly larger (mean tomont diameter 466 x 400 microns) than at 25 C (mean diameter 373 x 320 microns). On M. novemaculeata, trophonts never grew as large as on L. calcarifer and at 20 C they grew poorly. The number of theronts produced per tomont was directly related to the size of the tomont but was not influenced by incubation temperature."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8627500
Special cysts?
Where is everyone getting the information that ich forms "special" cysts at high temp? I thought the life cycle was accelerated at high temp; and "special" hibernation cysts formed at low temp. As for high temp, this study provides evidence (non-conclusive) that trophont (feeding) stage is accelerated.
" At 20 C trophonts stayed on the fish longer, tomonts took longer to excyst, and the resulting theronts were larger than at 25 C. On L. calcarifer at 20 C, trophonts grew slowly at first but eventually became significantly larger (mean tomont diameter 466 x 400 microns) than at 25 C (mean diameter 373 x 320 microns). On M. novemaculeata, trophonts never grew as large as on L. calcarifer and at 20 C they grew poorly. The number of theronts produced per tomont was directly related to the size of the tomont but was not influenced by incubation temperature."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8627500
bstrawn
New member
Ich dying off
Ich dying off
I am new to RC so not sure this is the right place for my post but, I have a 20 gall QT with a cleaner wrasse as a permanent resident. I put a yellow and a kole tang in about two weeks ago (bought at LFS that routinely treats their fish before selling). Guess what? They both started showing signs of ich. I treated with "Lifeguard" for 5 days, following directions precisely. It did not kill the ich so I dropped the salinity from 024 to .017 & raised the temp to 78. This am the kole tang has slimy stuff hanging off of him & he is twitching trying to get it off, with some success. But he can't eat because it is in his mouth too. The yellow tang is hogging the wrasse, but he is also picking at the kole. My questions: is that the ich dying off the kole or is the fish dying? What does dying ich look like? Can you actually see it? Yellow still has some spots on his fins so should I treat the tank again? Or just keep dropping the salinity?
Ich dying off
I am new to RC so not sure this is the right place for my post but, I have a 20 gall QT with a cleaner wrasse as a permanent resident. I put a yellow and a kole tang in about two weeks ago (bought at LFS that routinely treats their fish before selling). Guess what? They both started showing signs of ich. I treated with "Lifeguard" for 5 days, following directions precisely. It did not kill the ich so I dropped the salinity from 024 to .017 & raised the temp to 78. This am the kole tang has slimy stuff hanging off of him & he is twitching trying to get it off, with some success. But he can't eat because it is in his mouth too. The yellow tang is hogging the wrasse, but he is also picking at the kole. My questions: is that the ich dying off the kole or is the fish dying? What does dying ich look like? Can you actually see it? Yellow still has some spots on his fins so should I treat the tank again? Or just keep dropping the salinity?
blusafe
New member
Biological controls are not effective. Your cleaner wrasse is probably infected with ich. The wrasse eats external parasites - ich burrows into fish skin.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php
michfish5
New member
I put two fish in my 20 gal QT on 8/21 - a PJ Cardinal and a Royal Gramma. I dosed Prazipro but about a week into observation, the Royal Gramma started scratching. I slowly lowered the SG to 1.009 over three days. Once hypo was achieved the RG stopped scratching and was doing really well. No more scratching, eating well, and active. But a week later he was reinfected. He soon stopped eating and eventually died after three weeks in hypo. I was vigilant with my SG, even had my refractometer calibration checked at the LFS just in case but it was spot on. That was the second Gramma I lost in QT with all parameters great. Are they hard to QT?
The PJ Cardinal never showed any signs of illness the entire time. He is STILL eating like a horse and very active. Never showed any flashing or visible spots. My question is, how long do I have to keep the PJ in hypo if it never showed any signs of illness? Do I continue for the rest of the 4 weeks in hypo and then start bringing the SG back up very slowly and observe for another week or two? Or should I just go ahead NOW and start bringing it back up to normal? Would LOVE to get a fish in my display tank that has been sitting cycled since July1. Thanks!
The PJ Cardinal never showed any signs of illness the entire time. He is STILL eating like a horse and very active. Never showed any flashing or visible spots. My question is, how long do I have to keep the PJ in hypo if it never showed any signs of illness? Do I continue for the rest of the 4 weeks in hypo and then start bringing the SG back up very slowly and observe for another week or two? Or should I just go ahead NOW and start bringing it back up to normal? Would LOVE to get a fish in my display tank that has been sitting cycled since July1. Thanks!
vitz
New member
rarely have i read a post where the poster is this sure of his being right, when he/she's so completely wrong.
please provide a link of any kind that establishes that an sg of 1.009 does NOT kill ich. none of your own material, please.
i'll wager i've treated/had more experience with ich and dips, hypo, etc., than you've had by orders of magnitude.
parasites can and will die from hyposalinity 'alone'. (for those that don't remain attached to a host for the entire life cycle). it's the only completely effective non medication option out there for ich, and it works 100% of the time. any instance where it doesn't is purely, completely, unequivocally, beyond any shadow of a doubt, user error
you should educate yourself more about the animals you claim to know about before throwing around the word 'veterinarian', imo. there's gobs of folks on this board alone who know gobs more about fish husbandry and parasites than any 100 veterinarians put together, heh.
true hypo for the proper amount of time kills cryptocaryon. end of story. there's really no room for debate here
vitz
New member
of all the species of fish i've dipped while working at a whoresalers,(pretty much every species in the trade) clowns were always the most tolerant of/showed the least stress when doing 'long' dips (15-40 minutes).
their tolerance for a very wide range of salinities (long term) is remarkable-both low, and high
(personal experience). not surprising for what is essentially a damselfish
vitz
New member
if you're only dropping the sg to .012, you might as well not drop it at all. .012 does nothing at all.
there's absolutely no proof at all that garlic will do anything for ich. it's a bandwagon rumor.
most uv's aren't set properly for wattage vs flow rate to properly zap free swimming parasites, and they also zap everything else in the water that passes through them, bad or good.
i'd therefore suggest that, contrary to your recommendation, people DON'T follow this procedure or your advice-it's mostly based on falsehood (including that ridiculous statement about stirring up the sand bed)
vitz
New member
your opinion on this matter, unfortunately, is wrong. plenty of tanks w/no tangs get ich. every fish can get it.
not getting a disease while not keeping a particular species and attributing the lack of the disease in the system to that is, well, just making stuff up.
ReefKeeper64
Wanna be a reefkeeper
How exactly do I test for 1.009 using this refractometer?
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